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Re: [sig] Naming query, ect

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  • Paul W. Goldschmidt
    ... Yes, most of the adjectival bynames I ve seen are later period but I hardly would worry about it. ... We could go either way. I must say that I would
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
      At 01:00 PM 2/28/2003 -0600, you wrote:
      >Novgorod and dabbles in trade during the early 12th Century. I can document
      >all of the naming elements (and indeed, the style of the name) to within 50
      >years of each other, and everything *but* the adjective locative to
      >Novgorod.

      Yes, most of the adjectival bynames I've seen are later period but I hardly
      would worry about it.

      >Now, my question. Would it be more appropriate to register the entire
      >thing, or just Ekaterina Novgorodskaia, which is what I end up signing
      >things, and a perfectly good recreation (from what I see... She is
      >traveling outside of Novgorod, so therefore that would be the most obvious
      >thing to distinguish her, right?)

      We could go either way. I must say that I would probably register the name
      and patronymic and just use the adjective -- that would be more common.

      >P.S. Is there any resource of period legal documents that I could access on
      >the internet/request by Inter-Library Loan?

      In English or Russian?

      -- Paul
    • Ekaterina Stepanova
      ... hardly ... name ... Actually, the name I found for the style of name is from your Locative Bynames article: Vseslav syn Briachislavl Polot skyi. 1067.
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
        > Yes, most of the adjectival bynames I've seen are later period but I
        hardly
        > would worry about it.
        >
        > We could go either way. I must say that I would probably register the
        name
        > and patronymic and just use the adjective -- that would be more common.

        Actually, the name I found for the style of name is from your Locative
        Bynames article:

        Vseslav syn Briachislavl' Polot'skyi. 1067. [Woj 119]

        I'm not entirely sure where the place in question is, but 1067 is hardly
        late period. :)

        But thanks for the imput.

        > In English or Russian?

        Preferably in English, since it's the only language I speak/can read. ^_^
        But anything in Russian with pictures is good as well.

        Many thanks,

        Ekaterina
      • Paul W. Goldschmidt
        ... Fair enough, but in terms of frequency, I think you d find adjectival locatives tend to be later period than early. Not an issue of didn t happen just
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
          At 10:46 AM 3/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
          >Actually, the name I found for the style of name is from your Locative
          >Bynames article:
          >
          >Vseslav syn Briachislavl' Polot'skyi. 1067. [Woj 119]
          >
          >I'm not entirely sure where the place in question is, but 1067 is hardly
          >late period. :)

          Fair enough, but in terms of frequency, I think you'd find adjectival
          locatives tend to be later period than early. Not an issue of "didn't
          happen" just "more common."

          >Preferably in English, since it's the only language I speak/can read. ^_^
          >But anything in Russian with pictures is good as well.

          Works in English will modernize the names, as well as modernizing the
          language. For a good start, I'd look at Riha's Reader on early Russian
          history (I don't have the title handy, but Yana has a copy so maybe she can
          provide it). As I said, it won't give you any period names though.

          -- Paul
        • Alexey Kiyaikin
          Greetings! ... Paul, was it really Vseslav syn Briachislav , not Vseslav Briachislavich ? All in all, he s a prince. In Russian he is ever mentioned with
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
            Greetings!
            >>Actually, the name I found for the style of name is from your Locative
            >>Bynames article:
            >>
            >>Vseslav syn Briachislavl' Polot'skyi. 1067. [Woj 119]
            >>
            >>I'm not entirely sure where the place in question is, but 1067 is hardly
            >>late period. :)

            Paul, was it really "Vseslav syn Briachislav", not "Vseslav
            Briachislavich"? All in all, he's a prince. In Russian he is ever mentioned with
            -ich, in all references.

            Bye,
            Alex
          • Ekaterina Stepanova
            ... can ... Actually, I would ideally like pictures of the documents themselves... Eventually I want to be able to cobble together a reasonable recreation of
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
              > Works in English will modernize the names, as well as modernizing the
              > language. For a good start, I'd look at Riha's Reader on early Russian
              > history (I don't have the title handy, but Yana has a copy so maybe she
              can
              > provide it). As I said, it won't give you any period names though.
              >
              > -- Paul

              Actually, I would ideally like pictures of the documents themselves...
              Eventually I want to be able to cobble together a reasonable recreation of
              Russian scribe's script (if such a thing existed).

              Ekaterina
            • Paul W. Goldschmidt
              ... I d bet you that those are MODERN references you are speaking of that modernize the spellings. You will find different spellings in the original
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
                At 02:08 AM 3/2/2003 +0300, you wrote:
                > >>Vseslav syn Briachislavl' Polot'skyi. 1067. [Woj 119]
                > >>
                > >>I'm not entirely sure where the place in question is, but 1067 is hardly
                > >>late period. :)
                >
                >Paul, was it really "Vseslav syn Briachislav", not "Vseslav
                >Briachislavich"? All in all, he's a prince. In Russian he is ever
                >mentioned with
                >-ich, in all references.

                I'd bet you that those are MODERN references you are speaking of that
                modernize the spellings. You will find different spellings in the original
                manuscripts.
              • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                ... That s much harder to find. The only facsimiles I ve seen are of selected Chronicles and a Psalter or two. Not really the legal stuff. But if what you
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
                  At 05:10 PM 3/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
                  >Actually, I would ideally like pictures of the documents themselves...
                  >Eventually I want to be able to cobble together a reasonable recreation of
                  >Russian scribe's script (if such a thing existed).
                  >
                  >Ekaterina

                  That's much harder to find. The only facsimiles I've seen are of selected
                  Chronicles and a Psalter or two. Not really the legal stuff. But if what
                  you want is just calligraphy samples, those shouldn't be too difficult to
                  dig up. I have a Chronicles of Alexander Nevsky facsimile that I bought
                  from Kamkin. I know some libraries have copies.

                  -- Paul
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