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Naming query, ect

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  • Ekaterina Stepanova
    Having finally arrived at a name I am rather fond (and proud) of, I would like to ask the imput of people with exponentially more experience with Russian
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 28, 2003
      Having finally arrived at a name I am rather fond (and proud) of, I would
      like to ask the imput of people with exponentially more experience with
      Russian names. My persona's name is Ekaterina Stepanova doch'
      Novgorodskaia, and she is the daughter of a landowner who resides in
      Novgorod and dabbles in trade during the early 12th Century. I can document
      all of the naming elements (and indeed, the style of the name) to within 50
      years of each other, and everything *but* the adjective locative to
      Novgorod.

      Now, my question. Would it be more appropriate to register the entire
      thing, or just Ekaterina Novgorodskaia, which is what I end up signing
      things, and a perfectly good recreation (from what I see... She is
      traveling outside of Novgorod, so therefore that would be the most obvious
      thing to distinguish her, right?)

      Comments? Suggestions?

      Many thanks in advance,
      Ekaterina
      semi-compulsive onomastician

      P.S. Is there any resource of period legal documents that I could access on
      the internet/request by Inter-Library Loan?
    • Paul W. Goldschmidt
      ... Yes, most of the adjectival bynames I ve seen are later period but I hardly would worry about it. ... We could go either way. I must say that I would
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
        At 01:00 PM 2/28/2003 -0600, you wrote:
        >Novgorod and dabbles in trade during the early 12th Century. I can document
        >all of the naming elements (and indeed, the style of the name) to within 50
        >years of each other, and everything *but* the adjective locative to
        >Novgorod.

        Yes, most of the adjectival bynames I've seen are later period but I hardly
        would worry about it.

        >Now, my question. Would it be more appropriate to register the entire
        >thing, or just Ekaterina Novgorodskaia, which is what I end up signing
        >things, and a perfectly good recreation (from what I see... She is
        >traveling outside of Novgorod, so therefore that would be the most obvious
        >thing to distinguish her, right?)

        We could go either way. I must say that I would probably register the name
        and patronymic and just use the adjective -- that would be more common.

        >P.S. Is there any resource of period legal documents that I could access on
        >the internet/request by Inter-Library Loan?

        In English or Russian?

        -- Paul
      • Ekaterina Stepanova
        ... hardly ... name ... Actually, the name I found for the style of name is from your Locative Bynames article: Vseslav syn Briachislavl Polot skyi. 1067.
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
          > Yes, most of the adjectival bynames I've seen are later period but I
          hardly
          > would worry about it.
          >
          > We could go either way. I must say that I would probably register the
          name
          > and patronymic and just use the adjective -- that would be more common.

          Actually, the name I found for the style of name is from your Locative
          Bynames article:

          Vseslav syn Briachislavl' Polot'skyi. 1067. [Woj 119]

          I'm not entirely sure where the place in question is, but 1067 is hardly
          late period. :)

          But thanks for the imput.

          > In English or Russian?

          Preferably in English, since it's the only language I speak/can read. ^_^
          But anything in Russian with pictures is good as well.

          Many thanks,

          Ekaterina
        • Paul W. Goldschmidt
          ... Fair enough, but in terms of frequency, I think you d find adjectival locatives tend to be later period than early. Not an issue of didn t happen just
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
            At 10:46 AM 3/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
            >Actually, the name I found for the style of name is from your Locative
            >Bynames article:
            >
            >Vseslav syn Briachislavl' Polot'skyi. 1067. [Woj 119]
            >
            >I'm not entirely sure where the place in question is, but 1067 is hardly
            >late period. :)

            Fair enough, but in terms of frequency, I think you'd find adjectival
            locatives tend to be later period than early. Not an issue of "didn't
            happen" just "more common."

            >Preferably in English, since it's the only language I speak/can read. ^_^
            >But anything in Russian with pictures is good as well.

            Works in English will modernize the names, as well as modernizing the
            language. For a good start, I'd look at Riha's Reader on early Russian
            history (I don't have the title handy, but Yana has a copy so maybe she can
            provide it). As I said, it won't give you any period names though.

            -- Paul
          • Alexey Kiyaikin
            Greetings! ... Paul, was it really Vseslav syn Briachislav , not Vseslav Briachislavich ? All in all, he s a prince. In Russian he is ever mentioned with
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
              Greetings!
              >>Actually, the name I found for the style of name is from your Locative
              >>Bynames article:
              >>
              >>Vseslav syn Briachislavl' Polot'skyi. 1067. [Woj 119]
              >>
              >>I'm not entirely sure where the place in question is, but 1067 is hardly
              >>late period. :)

              Paul, was it really "Vseslav syn Briachislav", not "Vseslav
              Briachislavich"? All in all, he's a prince. In Russian he is ever mentioned with
              -ich, in all references.

              Bye,
              Alex
            • Ekaterina Stepanova
              ... can ... Actually, I would ideally like pictures of the documents themselves... Eventually I want to be able to cobble together a reasonable recreation of
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
                > Works in English will modernize the names, as well as modernizing the
                > language. For a good start, I'd look at Riha's Reader on early Russian
                > history (I don't have the title handy, but Yana has a copy so maybe she
                can
                > provide it). As I said, it won't give you any period names though.
                >
                > -- Paul

                Actually, I would ideally like pictures of the documents themselves...
                Eventually I want to be able to cobble together a reasonable recreation of
                Russian scribe's script (if such a thing existed).

                Ekaterina
              • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                ... I d bet you that those are MODERN references you are speaking of that modernize the spellings. You will find different spellings in the original
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
                  At 02:08 AM 3/2/2003 +0300, you wrote:
                  > >>Vseslav syn Briachislavl' Polot'skyi. 1067. [Woj 119]
                  > >>
                  > >>I'm not entirely sure where the place in question is, but 1067 is hardly
                  > >>late period. :)
                  >
                  >Paul, was it really "Vseslav syn Briachislav", not "Vseslav
                  >Briachislavich"? All in all, he's a prince. In Russian he is ever
                  >mentioned with
                  >-ich, in all references.

                  I'd bet you that those are MODERN references you are speaking of that
                  modernize the spellings. You will find different spellings in the original
                  manuscripts.
                • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                  ... That s much harder to find. The only facsimiles I ve seen are of selected Chronicles and a Psalter or two. Not really the legal stuff. But if what you
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 1, 2003
                    At 05:10 PM 3/1/2003 -0600, you wrote:
                    >Actually, I would ideally like pictures of the documents themselves...
                    >Eventually I want to be able to cobble together a reasonable recreation of
                    >Russian scribe's script (if such a thing existed).
                    >
                    >Ekaterina

                    That's much harder to find. The only facsimiles I've seen are of selected
                    Chronicles and a Psalter or two. Not really the legal stuff. But if what
                    you want is just calligraphy samples, those shouldn't be too difficult to
                    dig up. I have a Chronicles of Alexander Nevsky facsimile that I bought
                    from Kamkin. I know some libraries have copies.

                    -- Paul
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