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Re[2]: [sig] New comer naming question

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin
    Greetings Norm! ... You are wrong, I d say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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      Greetings Norm!
      > I suggest Mikhail, although Southerners might go by Mikhailo. Misha isn't
      > really very period from what I can tell. It certainly wasn't common.
      You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
      story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
      so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.

      Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
      for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
      oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
      processing, sorry.

      bye,
      Alex
    • Paul W. Goldschmidt
      ... I m sorry Alex, but you are incorrect. A Medvednik is a bear keeper -- a person who takes care of bears for entertainment purposes. And there was a
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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        At 05:54 AM 3/1/2003 +0300, you wrote:
        >Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
        >for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
        >oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
        >processing, sorry.
        >
        >bye,
        >Alex

        I'm sorry Alex, but you are incorrect. A Medvednik is a "bear keeper" -- a
        person who takes care of bears for entertainment purposes. And there was a
        Nefedko Medvednikov who is recorded in c1495 in _Novgorodskiia pistsovyia
        knigi_ (SPb, 1880-1910) -- First Volume, page 268.

        You'll also find Medvedchik in period as both given name and byname
        (Medvedchikov).

        -- Paul
      • Paul W. Goldschmidt
        ... Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don t mean later? -- Paul
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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          At 08:08 PM 2/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
          > Were there any naming things I need to know in Muscovite
          >Russia (that's the area i'm trying to develop my persona in. Time wise its
          >about 12-14th Century)? Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
          >this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view (I'm going by
          >info on the top of my head)?

          Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don't
          mean later?

          -- Paul
        • MHoll@aol.com
          In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:04:55 AM Central Standard Time, ... In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don t remember a Misha, and I ve read the account a
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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            In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:04:55 AM Central Standard Time,
            Posadnik@... writes:

            > You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
            > story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
            > so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.

            In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don't remember a Misha, and I've read
            the account a number of times. In the film? It's irrelevant.

            > Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
            > for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
            > oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
            > processing, sorry.

            Bear hunting. You can't use modern examples.

            Predslava.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:05:00 AM Central Standard Time, ... Unless you want to build yourself a persona with Tartar ancestors (mostly high nobility
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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              In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:05:00 AM Central Standard Time,
              xvlovercrimvx@... writes:

              > Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
              > this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view

              Unless you want to build yourself a persona with Tartar ancestors (mostly
              high nobility anyway), I wouldn't worry about it. Just go with Slavic names.

              Predslava.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Alexey Kiyaikin
              Greetings! ... AFAIR, the chronicle. same chronicle that mentioned the duel between the leaders, the cutting down of the Birger s tent s central pole, etc.
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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                Greetings!
                >> You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
                >> story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                >> so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.
                >
                > In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don't remember a Misha, and I've read
                > the account a number of times. In the film? It's irrelevant.
                AFAIR, the chronicle. same chronicle that mentioned the duel between
                the leaders, the cutting down of the Birger's tent's central pole,
                etc. Misha the Carpenter was among the three or four warriors
                mentioned in that text. Sorry, can't cite here - no book right now at
                hand. Just my memories how i read it. BTW, first I met that person in
                a children's book at the age of 5, and being already an adult was
                somehow interested by the fact that personality wasn't fictitious.
                >

                >> Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                >> for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                >> oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                >> processing, sorry.
                >
                > Bear hunting. You can't use modern examples.
                Medvezhatnik. It's not modern.

                Bye,
                Alex.
              • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                In a message dated 3/1/03 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I m trying to research the different
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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                  In a message dated 3/1/03 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  goldschp@... writes:


                  > Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don't
                  > mean later?
                  >
                  > -- Paul
                  >

                  What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I'm trying to
                  research the different areas of Russia (Novogrod, Muscovite, and Kievian) and
                  am trying to place my persona's origins in one of those three "kingdoms"
                  (used loosely). My persona's father is an Italian Merchant so Novogrod would
                  seem to be a good place since his mother is Half-German also. Kievian Rus was
                  powerful but mainly wasn't it powerful in S. Russian and near Ukraine? If
                  anyone has any info, it would be appreciated. Thanks!

                  Misha


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                • Elizabeth Lear
                  ... Lifted from my own lecture notes: KIEV 970-1240 Kiev began as a small village settled in the 9th century by Swedish vikings called Varangians. It s
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
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                    On Sat, Mar 01, 2003 at 11:58:17PM -0500, xvlovercrimvx@... wrote:
                    > What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I'm trying to
                    > research the different areas of Russia (Novogrod, Muscovite, and Kievian)

                    Lifted from my own lecture notes:

                    KIEV 970-1240

                    Kiev began as a small village settled in the 9th century by Swedish
                    vikings called Varangians. It's located on the Dnieper River, which
                    functioned as a highway to Constantinople. As a result it thrived as
                    a trading community and was wealthy, sophisticated, and envied.

                    The Grand Duchy of Kiev had been a very strong influence on the region
                    in the middle ages, but it started to decline in the late 11th century
                    as the Grand Duke started to lose authority over feudal principalities
                    that were asserting their independence.

                    This breakdown made it easier for the nomadic tribes of the east to
                    invade southern Russia. Kiev was divided, and eventually formed three
                    related but independent regions in the 13th century.
                    Great Russia - Vladimir, Rostov and Novgorod Little Russia -
                    the southwest regions Belorussia - the eastern regions

                    The Grand Duchy of Kiev was devestated by the Mongol invasions in the
                    1200s and did not really recover until the 18th century.


                    NOVGOROD 1240-1480

                    While Kiev was the center of Russian power, Novgorod was second to it
                    in importance. Novgorod imitated Kiev's architecture and culture,
                    which made it an excellent 'storehouse' for preserving that culture
                    during the Tartar domination (1238-1462).

                    Novgorod was the largest and richest city in Russia from the 12th to
                    the 15th centuries after Kiev was conquered and divided. Its
                    relatively sheltered location spared it from much of the Tartar
                    invasion, but it survived in style during the occupation of Russia
                    primarily by submitting themselves completely to Tartar rule. They
                    paid tribute, did homage to the "Tartar Tsar", and admitted Mongol
                    tax-gatherers.

                    In return, Novgorod was spared and became a merchant city and a great
                    center of the arts, with new schools of architecture and icon painting
                    thriving there. Russian art and literature flourished. Gusli playing
                    was developed in Novogorod. The streets were paved with lumber in the
                    11th century (Paris did the same in 1184), and water was transported
                    through wooden pipes.

                    The Moscow Tsar Ivan III conquered Novgorod in 1475.

                    MOSCOW 1480-

                    The first written reference to Moscow was in 1147, when it was
                    mentioned as being the hunting lodge of a local boyar prince.
                    Originally stettled by Finnish tribes, it was not really a city until
                    the 1300s, and wasn't the center of power in Russia until about 1500.
                    By 1700, Moscow was the unchallenged center of Russian civilization,
                    but the riches of Moscow were assembled by impoverishing the smaller
                    centers of local culture (a pattern repeated in the 1900s by
                    St. Petersburg).

                    The princes of Moscow began to consolidate Russian feudal
                    principalities in the 15th century. They were basically fighting the
                    Tartars for control of the land while the territories were already
                    subjugated. They were also fighting off incursions from the west from
                    the Grand Duchys of Poland and Lithuania.

                    The areas now known as Ukraine and Belorus were added to Moscow's
                    territory in 1654.


                    -Yeliz
                  • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                    Ah, spaseeba to Yeliz for the notes. I guess Misha would be placed in Novogrod. Another question:Would there be any Tataric influence with the clothing or did
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                      Ah, spaseeba to Yeliz for the notes. I guess Misha would be placed in
                      Novogrod. Another question:Would there be any Tataric influence with the
                      clothing or did the Russian's keep their own sense of style in defiance to
                      their Tatar rulers? I think I asked this question before, but just want to
                      make sure. Any good places online for Russian information? Most of the stuff
                      I have found is either high school oriented (either too vague or maybe
                      misleading) or in Russian (And I don't read Cyrrilic or speak Russian).
                      Thanks for the info everyone!

                      Misha


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                    • Elizabeth Lear
                      ... There s a very nice SCA publication about 13 C Novgorod, reprinted online at http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html Also, Mistress Nicolaa put
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                        > Would there be any Tataric influence with the
                        > clothing or did the Russian's keep their own sense of style in defiance to
                        > their Tatar rulers?
                        > Misha

                        There's a very nice SCA publication about 13 C Novgorod, reprinted
                        online at http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html

                        Also, Mistress Nicolaa put together a book on Novgorod in 1036 which
                        you once were able to order from her. It was written for a local
                        event.


                        For a more general overview, heck out my costume lecture notes:
                        http://indra.com/~eliz/SCA/costuming.txt

                        Particularly, according to "A Cultural History of Russia" (details in
                        the biblio):
                        - The Moscow Court spoke Turkish in the 15th century.
                        - By the end of the 17th century, approximately 17% of the Moscow
                        aristocracy was Mongol.
                        - Many Russian noblemen from the 15th to 17th centuries took Mongol
                        surnames.

                        (Personally, my persona is ostensibly Kiev circa 1450, and own
                        wardrobe is Ukranian, Russian, and Mongol)

                        -Yeliz
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