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Re: [sig] New comer naming question

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  • Paul W. Goldschmidt
    ... I suggest Mikhail, although Southerners might go by Mikhailo. Misha isn t really very period from what I can tell. It certainly wasn t common.
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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      At 09:46 PM 2/27/2003 -0500, you wrote:
      >So my name would make my father's name Girgory or Gregory (name being Misha
      >Grigor'ev). And would my first name be period since it is translated as Mike
      >(being the nickname of Michael or Mikhail). If I was to register my name,
      >would it be better to register as Mikhail or Misha? Thanks!

      I suggest Mikhail, although Southerners might go by Mikhailo. Misha isn't
      really very period from what I can tell. It certainly wasn't common.
    • MHoll@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/27/2003 9:50:22 PM Central Standard Time, ... The only reference to Misha I find is from 1617, which places it in the gray area (sort of
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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        In a message dated 2/27/2003 9:50:22 PM Central Standard Time,
        xvlovercrimvx@... writes:

        > So my name would make my father's name Girgory or Gregory (name being Misha
        > Grigor'ev). And would my first name be period since it is translated as
        > Mike
        > (being the nickname of Michael or Mikhail). If I was to register my name,
        > would it be better to register as Mikhail or Misha? Thanks!
        >

        The only reference to Misha I find is from 1617, which places it in the gray
        area (sort of period, but not really). In other words, it would work if you
        insist on that diminutive. Mikhei would be better, more solidly in-period
        (15th century). Mikhail, of course, would work just fine.

        You father's name would be Grigorii (a matter of spelling convention), and
        your patronymic Grigoriev.

        Predslava.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
        So it would pass if my name was Mikhail Grigoriev? What about a surname or was that later in Russia? Misha [Non-text portions of this message have been
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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          So it would pass if my name was Mikhail Grigoriev? What about a surname or
          was that later in Russia?

          Misha


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sismith42 <sismith42@yahoo.com>
          Hi Mikhail/Patric/Whomever you settle on :) ... you don t explicatly state which culture you re going for-- the slavic region supported many :) meeting last
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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            Hi Mikhail/Patric/Whomever you settle on :)

            > I'm working on getting a persona together (went to my first SCA

            you don't explicatly state which culture you're going for-- the
            slavic region supported many :)

            meeting last night) and wanted to make sure I was following the
            proper rules for a 12th-14th century persona. I'm still not decided
            on the exact period yet either.

            Rules? What rules? Naming rules or... is there something I
            didn't "get" here in the SCA?

            Finding a precise "I was born at this time and died at that one" time-
            window is only as important as you make it. Many people keep theirs
            vauge.

            Stefania/Stephanie (still working on a last name...)
          • goldschp@mailbag.com
            Assuming that there isn t already a Mikhail Grigoriev (or Grigor ev) registered in the Society, I would think this is an easy one to pass. Surnames are pretty
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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              Assuming that there isn't already a Mikhail Grigoriev (or Grigor'ev) registered
              in the Society, I would think this is an easy one to pass. Surnames are pretty
              late period things.

              We would, however, register them, so you could be: Mikhail Grigoriev
              Medvednikov (wasn't that the surname you were thinking of?) or Mikhail
              Grigoriev syn Medvednikov, or a bazillion other possibilities.

              > So it would pass if my name was Mikhail Grigoriev? What about a surname or
              > was that later in Russia?

              -- Paul
            • MHoll@aol.com
              In a message dated 2/28/2003 11:22:08 AM Central Standard Time, ... Yes, Mikhail Grigoriev would pass. Surnames are pretty much out of SCA period. You don t
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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                In a message dated 2/28/2003 11:22:08 AM Central Standard Time,
                xvlovercrimvx@... writes:

                > So it would pass if my name was Mikhail Grigoriev? What about a surname or
                > was that later in Russia?
                >

                Yes, Mikhail Grigoriev would pass. Surnames are pretty much out of SCA
                period. You don't need one.

                Predslava


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                In a message dated 2/28/03 1:26:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Different person :). Were there any naming things I need to know in Muscovite Russia (that s
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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                  In a message dated 2/28/03 1:26:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  goldschp@... writes:


                  > We would, however, register them, so you could be: Mikhail Grigoriev
                  > Medvednikov (wasn't that the surname you were thinking of?) or Mikhail
                  > Grigoriev syn Medvednikov, or a bazillion other possibilities.

                  Different person :). Were there any naming things I need to know in Muscovite
                  Russia (that's the area i'm trying to develop my persona in. Time wise its
                  about 12-14th Century)? Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
                  this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view (I'm going by
                  info on the top of my head)?


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Alexey Kiyaikin
                  Greetings Norm! ... You are wrong, I d say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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                    Greetings Norm!
                    > I suggest Mikhail, although Southerners might go by Mikhailo. Misha isn't
                    > really very period from what I can tell. It certainly wasn't common.
                    You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
                    story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                    so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.

                    Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                    for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                    oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                    processing, sorry.

                    bye,
                    Alex
                  • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                    ... I m sorry Alex, but you are incorrect. A Medvednik is a bear keeper -- a person who takes care of bears for entertainment purposes. And there was a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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                      At 05:54 AM 3/1/2003 +0300, you wrote:
                      >Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                      >for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                      >oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                      >processing, sorry.
                      >
                      >bye,
                      >Alex

                      I'm sorry Alex, but you are incorrect. A Medvednik is a "bear keeper" -- a
                      person who takes care of bears for entertainment purposes. And there was a
                      Nefedko Medvednikov who is recorded in c1495 in _Novgorodskiia pistsovyia
                      knigi_ (SPb, 1880-1910) -- First Volume, page 268.

                      You'll also find Medvedchik in period as both given name and byname
                      (Medvedchikov).

                      -- Paul
                    • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                      ... Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don t mean later? -- Paul
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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                        At 08:08 PM 2/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
                        > Were there any naming things I need to know in Muscovite
                        >Russia (that's the area i'm trying to develop my persona in. Time wise its
                        >about 12-14th Century)? Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
                        >this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view (I'm going by
                        >info on the top of my head)?

                        Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don't
                        mean later?

                        -- Paul
                      • MHoll@aol.com
                        In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:04:55 AM Central Standard Time, ... In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don t remember a Misha, and I ve read the account a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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                          In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:04:55 AM Central Standard Time,
                          Posadnik@... writes:

                          > You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
                          > story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                          > so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.

                          In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don't remember a Misha, and I've read
                          the account a number of times. In the film? It's irrelevant.

                          > Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                          > for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                          > oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                          > processing, sorry.

                          Bear hunting. You can't use modern examples.

                          Predslava.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • MHoll@aol.com
                          In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:05:00 AM Central Standard Time, ... Unless you want to build yourself a persona with Tartar ancestors (mostly high nobility
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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                            In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:05:00 AM Central Standard Time,
                            xvlovercrimvx@... writes:

                            > Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
                            > this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view

                            Unless you want to build yourself a persona with Tartar ancestors (mostly
                            high nobility anyway), I wouldn't worry about it. Just go with Slavic names.

                            Predslava.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Alexey Kiyaikin
                            Greetings! ... AFAIR, the chronicle. same chronicle that mentioned the duel between the leaders, the cutting down of the Birger s tent s central pole, etc.
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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                              Greetings!
                              >> You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
                              >> story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                              >> so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.
                              >
                              > In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don't remember a Misha, and I've read
                              > the account a number of times. In the film? It's irrelevant.
                              AFAIR, the chronicle. same chronicle that mentioned the duel between
                              the leaders, the cutting down of the Birger's tent's central pole,
                              etc. Misha the Carpenter was among the three or four warriors
                              mentioned in that text. Sorry, can't cite here - no book right now at
                              hand. Just my memories how i read it. BTW, first I met that person in
                              a children's book at the age of 5, and being already an adult was
                              somehow interested by the fact that personality wasn't fictitious.
                              >

                              >> Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                              >> for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                              >> oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                              >> processing, sorry.
                              >
                              > Bear hunting. You can't use modern examples.
                              Medvezhatnik. It's not modern.

                              Bye,
                              Alex.
                            • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                              In a message dated 3/1/03 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I m trying to research the different
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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                                In a message dated 3/1/03 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                goldschp@... writes:


                                > Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don't
                                > mean later?
                                >
                                > -- Paul
                                >

                                What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I'm trying to
                                research the different areas of Russia (Novogrod, Muscovite, and Kievian) and
                                am trying to place my persona's origins in one of those three "kingdoms"
                                (used loosely). My persona's father is an Italian Merchant so Novogrod would
                                seem to be a good place since his mother is Half-German also. Kievian Rus was
                                powerful but mainly wasn't it powerful in S. Russian and near Ukraine? If
                                anyone has any info, it would be appreciated. Thanks!

                                Misha


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                              • Elizabeth Lear
                                ... Lifted from my own lecture notes: KIEV 970-1240 Kiev began as a small village settled in the 9th century by Swedish vikings called Varangians. It s
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
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                                  On Sat, Mar 01, 2003 at 11:58:17PM -0500, xvlovercrimvx@... wrote:
                                  > What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I'm trying to
                                  > research the different areas of Russia (Novogrod, Muscovite, and Kievian)

                                  Lifted from my own lecture notes:

                                  KIEV 970-1240

                                  Kiev began as a small village settled in the 9th century by Swedish
                                  vikings called Varangians. It's located on the Dnieper River, which
                                  functioned as a highway to Constantinople. As a result it thrived as
                                  a trading community and was wealthy, sophisticated, and envied.

                                  The Grand Duchy of Kiev had been a very strong influence on the region
                                  in the middle ages, but it started to decline in the late 11th century
                                  as the Grand Duke started to lose authority over feudal principalities
                                  that were asserting their independence.

                                  This breakdown made it easier for the nomadic tribes of the east to
                                  invade southern Russia. Kiev was divided, and eventually formed three
                                  related but independent regions in the 13th century.
                                  Great Russia - Vladimir, Rostov and Novgorod Little Russia -
                                  the southwest regions Belorussia - the eastern regions

                                  The Grand Duchy of Kiev was devestated by the Mongol invasions in the
                                  1200s and did not really recover until the 18th century.


                                  NOVGOROD 1240-1480

                                  While Kiev was the center of Russian power, Novgorod was second to it
                                  in importance. Novgorod imitated Kiev's architecture and culture,
                                  which made it an excellent 'storehouse' for preserving that culture
                                  during the Tartar domination (1238-1462).

                                  Novgorod was the largest and richest city in Russia from the 12th to
                                  the 15th centuries after Kiev was conquered and divided. Its
                                  relatively sheltered location spared it from much of the Tartar
                                  invasion, but it survived in style during the occupation of Russia
                                  primarily by submitting themselves completely to Tartar rule. They
                                  paid tribute, did homage to the "Tartar Tsar", and admitted Mongol
                                  tax-gatherers.

                                  In return, Novgorod was spared and became a merchant city and a great
                                  center of the arts, with new schools of architecture and icon painting
                                  thriving there. Russian art and literature flourished. Gusli playing
                                  was developed in Novogorod. The streets were paved with lumber in the
                                  11th century (Paris did the same in 1184), and water was transported
                                  through wooden pipes.

                                  The Moscow Tsar Ivan III conquered Novgorod in 1475.

                                  MOSCOW 1480-

                                  The first written reference to Moscow was in 1147, when it was
                                  mentioned as being the hunting lodge of a local boyar prince.
                                  Originally stettled by Finnish tribes, it was not really a city until
                                  the 1300s, and wasn't the center of power in Russia until about 1500.
                                  By 1700, Moscow was the unchallenged center of Russian civilization,
                                  but the riches of Moscow were assembled by impoverishing the smaller
                                  centers of local culture (a pattern repeated in the 1900s by
                                  St. Petersburg).

                                  The princes of Moscow began to consolidate Russian feudal
                                  principalities in the 15th century. They were basically fighting the
                                  Tartars for control of the land while the territories were already
                                  subjugated. They were also fighting off incursions from the west from
                                  the Grand Duchys of Poland and Lithuania.

                                  The areas now known as Ukraine and Belorus were added to Moscow's
                                  territory in 1654.


                                  -Yeliz
                                • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                                  Ah, spaseeba to Yeliz for the notes. I guess Misha would be placed in Novogrod. Another question:Would there be any Tataric influence with the clothing or did
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                                    Ah, spaseeba to Yeliz for the notes. I guess Misha would be placed in
                                    Novogrod. Another question:Would there be any Tataric influence with the
                                    clothing or did the Russian's keep their own sense of style in defiance to
                                    their Tatar rulers? I think I asked this question before, but just want to
                                    make sure. Any good places online for Russian information? Most of the stuff
                                    I have found is either high school oriented (either too vague or maybe
                                    misleading) or in Russian (And I don't read Cyrrilic or speak Russian).
                                    Thanks for the info everyone!

                                    Misha


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                                  • Elizabeth Lear
                                    ... There s a very nice SCA publication about 13 C Novgorod, reprinted online at http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html Also, Mistress Nicolaa put
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                                      > Would there be any Tataric influence with the
                                      > clothing or did the Russian's keep their own sense of style in defiance to
                                      > their Tatar rulers?
                                      > Misha

                                      There's a very nice SCA publication about 13 C Novgorod, reprinted
                                      online at http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html

                                      Also, Mistress Nicolaa put together a book on Novgorod in 1036 which
                                      you once were able to order from her. It was written for a local
                                      event.


                                      For a more general overview, heck out my costume lecture notes:
                                      http://indra.com/~eliz/SCA/costuming.txt

                                      Particularly, according to "A Cultural History of Russia" (details in
                                      the biblio):
                                      - The Moscow Court spoke Turkish in the 15th century.
                                      - By the end of the 17th century, approximately 17% of the Moscow
                                      aristocracy was Mongol.
                                      - Many Russian noblemen from the 15th to 17th centuries took Mongol
                                      surnames.

                                      (Personally, my persona is ostensibly Kiev circa 1450, and own
                                      wardrobe is Ukranian, Russian, and Mongol)

                                      -Yeliz
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