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New comer naming question

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  • Patrick Jarrett
    Howdy all, I m new to the SCA, new to the list and new to slavic culture (for the most part, but I ve been studying what I can find online so far). I m working
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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      Howdy all, I'm new to the SCA, new to the list and new to slavic culture (for the most part, but I've been studying what I can find online so far).

      I'm working on getting a persona together (went to my first SCA meeting last night) and wanted to make sure I was following the proper rules for a 12th-14th century persona. I'm still not decided on the exact period yet either.

      In any case I was looking at Mikhail Medvednikov but with further research I got the impression surnames are more recent a development than the period I am looking at. So then I wanted to see how I would form a name with the father being Nikolai. Is it Mikhail Nikolaev?

      Thanks for the help and the place to ask for help!

      Sincerely,
      mka Patrick R. Jarrett
      Georgia Tech

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • MHoll@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/27/2003 6:51:45 PM Central Standard Time, ... Yes. Good job. Good name. Predslava. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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        In a message dated 2/27/2003 6:51:45 PM Central Standard Time,
        gtg346g@... writes:

        > So then I wanted to see how I would form a name with the father being
        > Nikolai. Is it Mikhail Nikolaev?
        >

        Yes. Good job. Good name.

        Predslava.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/27/03 8:49:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, MHoll@aol.com ... So my name would make my father s name Girgory or Gregory (name being Misha
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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          In a message dated 2/27/03 8:49:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, MHoll@...
          writes:


          > > So then I wanted to see how I would form a name with the father being
          > > Nikolai. Is it Mikhail Nikolaev?
          > >
          >
          > Yes. Good job. Good name.
          >
          > Predslava.
          >

          So my name would make my father's name Girgory or Gregory (name being Misha
          Grigor'ev). And would my first name be period since it is translated as Mike
          (being the nickname of Michael or Mikhail). If I was to register my name,
          would it be better to register as Mikhail or Misha? Thanks!

          Misha


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Paul W. Goldschmidt
          ... I suggest Mikhail, although Southerners might go by Mikhailo. Misha isn t really very period from what I can tell. It certainly wasn t common.
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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            At 09:46 PM 2/27/2003 -0500, you wrote:
            >So my name would make my father's name Girgory or Gregory (name being Misha
            >Grigor'ev). And would my first name be period since it is translated as Mike
            >(being the nickname of Michael or Mikhail). If I was to register my name,
            >would it be better to register as Mikhail or Misha? Thanks!

            I suggest Mikhail, although Southerners might go by Mikhailo. Misha isn't
            really very period from what I can tell. It certainly wasn't common.
          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/27/2003 9:50:22 PM Central Standard Time, ... The only reference to Misha I find is from 1617, which places it in the gray area (sort of
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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              In a message dated 2/27/2003 9:50:22 PM Central Standard Time,
              xvlovercrimvx@... writes:

              > So my name would make my father's name Girgory or Gregory (name being Misha
              > Grigor'ev). And would my first name be period since it is translated as
              > Mike
              > (being the nickname of Michael or Mikhail). If I was to register my name,
              > would it be better to register as Mikhail or Misha? Thanks!
              >

              The only reference to Misha I find is from 1617, which places it in the gray
              area (sort of period, but not really). In other words, it would work if you
              insist on that diminutive. Mikhei would be better, more solidly in-period
              (15th century). Mikhail, of course, would work just fine.

              You father's name would be Grigorii (a matter of spelling convention), and
              your patronymic Grigoriev.

              Predslava.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
              So it would pass if my name was Mikhail Grigoriev? What about a surname or was that later in Russia? Misha [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 27, 2003
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                So it would pass if my name was Mikhail Grigoriev? What about a surname or
                was that later in Russia?

                Misha


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sismith42 <sismith42@yahoo.com>
                Hi Mikhail/Patric/Whomever you settle on :) ... you don t explicatly state which culture you re going for-- the slavic region supported many :) meeting last
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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                  Hi Mikhail/Patric/Whomever you settle on :)

                  > I'm working on getting a persona together (went to my first SCA

                  you don't explicatly state which culture you're going for-- the
                  slavic region supported many :)

                  meeting last night) and wanted to make sure I was following the
                  proper rules for a 12th-14th century persona. I'm still not decided
                  on the exact period yet either.

                  Rules? What rules? Naming rules or... is there something I
                  didn't "get" here in the SCA?

                  Finding a precise "I was born at this time and died at that one" time-
                  window is only as important as you make it. Many people keep theirs
                  vauge.

                  Stefania/Stephanie (still working on a last name...)
                • goldschp@mailbag.com
                  Assuming that there isn t already a Mikhail Grigoriev (or Grigor ev) registered in the Society, I would think this is an easy one to pass. Surnames are pretty
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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                    Assuming that there isn't already a Mikhail Grigoriev (or Grigor'ev) registered
                    in the Society, I would think this is an easy one to pass. Surnames are pretty
                    late period things.

                    We would, however, register them, so you could be: Mikhail Grigoriev
                    Medvednikov (wasn't that the surname you were thinking of?) or Mikhail
                    Grigoriev syn Medvednikov, or a bazillion other possibilities.

                    > So it would pass if my name was Mikhail Grigoriev? What about a surname or
                    > was that later in Russia?

                    -- Paul
                  • MHoll@aol.com
                    In a message dated 2/28/2003 11:22:08 AM Central Standard Time, ... Yes, Mikhail Grigoriev would pass. Surnames are pretty much out of SCA period. You don t
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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                      In a message dated 2/28/2003 11:22:08 AM Central Standard Time,
                      xvlovercrimvx@... writes:

                      > So it would pass if my name was Mikhail Grigoriev? What about a surname or
                      > was that later in Russia?
                      >

                      Yes, Mikhail Grigoriev would pass. Surnames are pretty much out of SCA
                      period. You don't need one.

                      Predslava


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                      In a message dated 2/28/03 1:26:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Different person :). Were there any naming things I need to know in Muscovite Russia (that s
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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                        In a message dated 2/28/03 1:26:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        goldschp@... writes:


                        > We would, however, register them, so you could be: Mikhail Grigoriev
                        > Medvednikov (wasn't that the surname you were thinking of?) or Mikhail
                        > Grigoriev syn Medvednikov, or a bazillion other possibilities.

                        Different person :). Were there any naming things I need to know in Muscovite
                        Russia (that's the area i'm trying to develop my persona in. Time wise its
                        about 12-14th Century)? Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
                        this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view (I'm going by
                        info on the top of my head)?


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Alexey Kiyaikin
                        Greetings Norm! ... You are wrong, I d say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 28, 2003
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                          Greetings Norm!
                          > I suggest Mikhail, although Southerners might go by Mikhailo. Misha isn't
                          > really very period from what I can tell. It certainly wasn't common.
                          You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
                          story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                          so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.

                          Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                          for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                          oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                          processing, sorry.

                          bye,
                          Alex
                        • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                          ... I m sorry Alex, but you are incorrect. A Medvednik is a bear keeper -- a person who takes care of bears for entertainment purposes. And there was a
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 1 8:22 AM
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                            At 05:54 AM 3/1/2003 +0300, you wrote:
                            >Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                            >for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                            >oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                            >processing, sorry.
                            >
                            >bye,
                            >Alex

                            I'm sorry Alex, but you are incorrect. A Medvednik is a "bear keeper" -- a
                            person who takes care of bears for entertainment purposes. And there was a
                            Nefedko Medvednikov who is recorded in c1495 in _Novgorodskiia pistsovyia
                            knigi_ (SPb, 1880-1910) -- First Volume, page 268.

                            You'll also find Medvedchik in period as both given name and byname
                            (Medvedchikov).

                            -- Paul
                          • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                            ... Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don t mean later? -- Paul
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 1 8:24 AM
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                              At 08:08 PM 2/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
                              > Were there any naming things I need to know in Muscovite
                              >Russia (that's the area i'm trying to develop my persona in. Time wise its
                              >about 12-14th Century)? Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
                              >this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view (I'm going by
                              >info on the top of my head)?

                              Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don't
                              mean later?

                              -- Paul
                            • MHoll@aol.com
                              In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:04:55 AM Central Standard Time, ... In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don t remember a Misha, and I ve read the account a
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 1 11:41 AM
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                                In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:04:55 AM Central Standard Time,
                                Posadnik@... writes:

                                > You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
                                > story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                                > so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.

                                In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don't remember a Misha, and I've read
                                the account a number of times. In the film? It's irrelevant.

                                > Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                                > for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                                > oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                                > processing, sorry.

                                Bear hunting. You can't use modern examples.

                                Predslava.


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • MHoll@aol.com
                                In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:05:00 AM Central Standard Time, ... Unless you want to build yourself a persona with Tartar ancestors (mostly high nobility
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 1 11:42 AM
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                                  In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:05:00 AM Central Standard Time,
                                  xvlovercrimvx@... writes:

                                  > Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
                                  > this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view

                                  Unless you want to build yourself a persona with Tartar ancestors (mostly
                                  high nobility anyway), I wouldn't worry about it. Just go with Slavic names.

                                  Predslava.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                  Greetings! ... AFAIR, the chronicle. same chronicle that mentioned the duel between the leaders, the cutting down of the Birger s tent s central pole, etc.
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 1 3:03 PM
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                                    Greetings!
                                    >> You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
                                    >> story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
                                    >> so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.
                                    >
                                    > In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don't remember a Misha, and I've read
                                    > the account a number of times. In the film? It's irrelevant.
                                    AFAIR, the chronicle. same chronicle that mentioned the duel between
                                    the leaders, the cutting down of the Birger's tent's central pole,
                                    etc. Misha the Carpenter was among the three or four warriors
                                    mentioned in that text. Sorry, can't cite here - no book right now at
                                    hand. Just my memories how i read it. BTW, first I met that person in
                                    a children's book at the age of 5, and being already an adult was
                                    somehow interested by the fact that personality wasn't fictitious.
                                    >

                                    >> Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
                                    >> for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
                                    >> oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
                                    >> processing, sorry.
                                    >
                                    > Bear hunting. You can't use modern examples.
                                    Medvezhatnik. It's not modern.

                                    Bye,
                                    Alex.
                                  • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 3/1/03 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I m trying to research the different
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 1 8:58 PM
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                                      In a message dated 3/1/03 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                      goldschp@... writes:


                                      > Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don't
                                      > mean later?
                                      >
                                      > -- Paul
                                      >

                                      What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I'm trying to
                                      research the different areas of Russia (Novogrod, Muscovite, and Kievian) and
                                      am trying to place my persona's origins in one of those three "kingdoms"
                                      (used loosely). My persona's father is an Italian Merchant so Novogrod would
                                      seem to be a good place since his mother is Half-German also. Kievian Rus was
                                      powerful but mainly wasn't it powerful in S. Russian and near Ukraine? If
                                      anyone has any info, it would be appreciated. Thanks!

                                      Misha


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                                    • Elizabeth Lear
                                      ... Lifted from my own lecture notes: KIEV 970-1240 Kiev began as a small village settled in the 9th century by Swedish vikings called Varangians. It s
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 2 7:13 PM
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                                        On Sat, Mar 01, 2003 at 11:58:17PM -0500, xvlovercrimvx@... wrote:
                                        > What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I'm trying to
                                        > research the different areas of Russia (Novogrod, Muscovite, and Kievian)

                                        Lifted from my own lecture notes:

                                        KIEV 970-1240

                                        Kiev began as a small village settled in the 9th century by Swedish
                                        vikings called Varangians. It's located on the Dnieper River, which
                                        functioned as a highway to Constantinople. As a result it thrived as
                                        a trading community and was wealthy, sophisticated, and envied.

                                        The Grand Duchy of Kiev had been a very strong influence on the region
                                        in the middle ages, but it started to decline in the late 11th century
                                        as the Grand Duke started to lose authority over feudal principalities
                                        that were asserting their independence.

                                        This breakdown made it easier for the nomadic tribes of the east to
                                        invade southern Russia. Kiev was divided, and eventually formed three
                                        related but independent regions in the 13th century.
                                        Great Russia - Vladimir, Rostov and Novgorod Little Russia -
                                        the southwest regions Belorussia - the eastern regions

                                        The Grand Duchy of Kiev was devestated by the Mongol invasions in the
                                        1200s and did not really recover until the 18th century.


                                        NOVGOROD 1240-1480

                                        While Kiev was the center of Russian power, Novgorod was second to it
                                        in importance. Novgorod imitated Kiev's architecture and culture,
                                        which made it an excellent 'storehouse' for preserving that culture
                                        during the Tartar domination (1238-1462).

                                        Novgorod was the largest and richest city in Russia from the 12th to
                                        the 15th centuries after Kiev was conquered and divided. Its
                                        relatively sheltered location spared it from much of the Tartar
                                        invasion, but it survived in style during the occupation of Russia
                                        primarily by submitting themselves completely to Tartar rule. They
                                        paid tribute, did homage to the "Tartar Tsar", and admitted Mongol
                                        tax-gatherers.

                                        In return, Novgorod was spared and became a merchant city and a great
                                        center of the arts, with new schools of architecture and icon painting
                                        thriving there. Russian art and literature flourished. Gusli playing
                                        was developed in Novogorod. The streets were paved with lumber in the
                                        11th century (Paris did the same in 1184), and water was transported
                                        through wooden pipes.

                                        The Moscow Tsar Ivan III conquered Novgorod in 1475.

                                        MOSCOW 1480-

                                        The first written reference to Moscow was in 1147, when it was
                                        mentioned as being the hunting lodge of a local boyar prince.
                                        Originally stettled by Finnish tribes, it was not really a city until
                                        the 1300s, and wasn't the center of power in Russia until about 1500.
                                        By 1700, Moscow was the unchallenged center of Russian civilization,
                                        but the riches of Moscow were assembled by impoverishing the smaller
                                        centers of local culture (a pattern repeated in the 1900s by
                                        St. Petersburg).

                                        The princes of Moscow began to consolidate Russian feudal
                                        principalities in the 15th century. They were basically fighting the
                                        Tartars for control of the land while the territories were already
                                        subjugated. They were also fighting off incursions from the west from
                                        the Grand Duchys of Poland and Lithuania.

                                        The areas now known as Ukraine and Belorus were added to Moscow's
                                        territory in 1654.


                                        -Yeliz
                                      • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                                        Ah, spaseeba to Yeliz for the notes. I guess Misha would be placed in Novogrod. Another question:Would there be any Tataric influence with the clothing or did
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 4 7:05 AM
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                                          Ah, spaseeba to Yeliz for the notes. I guess Misha would be placed in
                                          Novogrod. Another question:Would there be any Tataric influence with the
                                          clothing or did the Russian's keep their own sense of style in defiance to
                                          their Tatar rulers? I think I asked this question before, but just want to
                                          make sure. Any good places online for Russian information? Most of the stuff
                                          I have found is either high school oriented (either too vague or maybe
                                          misleading) or in Russian (And I don't read Cyrrilic or speak Russian).
                                          Thanks for the info everyone!

                                          Misha


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                                        • Elizabeth Lear
                                          ... There s a very nice SCA publication about 13 C Novgorod, reprinted online at http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html Also, Mistress Nicolaa put
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 4 9:03 AM
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                                            > Would there be any Tataric influence with the
                                            > clothing or did the Russian's keep their own sense of style in defiance to
                                            > their Tatar rulers?
                                            > Misha

                                            There's a very nice SCA publication about 13 C Novgorod, reprinted
                                            online at http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html

                                            Also, Mistress Nicolaa put together a book on Novgorod in 1036 which
                                            you once were able to order from her. It was written for a local
                                            event.


                                            For a more general overview, heck out my costume lecture notes:
                                            http://indra.com/~eliz/SCA/costuming.txt

                                            Particularly, according to "A Cultural History of Russia" (details in
                                            the biblio):
                                            - The Moscow Court spoke Turkish in the 15th century.
                                            - By the end of the 17th century, approximately 17% of the Moscow
                                            aristocracy was Mongol.
                                            - Many Russian noblemen from the 15th to 17th centuries took Mongol
                                            surnames.

                                            (Personally, my persona is ostensibly Kiev circa 1450, and own
                                            wardrobe is Ukranian, Russian, and Mongol)

                                            -Yeliz
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