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Re: [sig] Re: early medieval Russian Embroidery! Please help!!

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  • Jenn Ridley
    ... Dover also has a book called Medieval Russian Ornament in Full Color . From the Moscow Museum of Art collection of illuminated manuscripts. All images
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 6, 2003
      On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:08:33 EST, MHoll@... wrote:

      >In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time,
      >lamiastrix@... writes:
      >> Don't know how much help it would be but Dover has:
      >> Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal
      >Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
      >folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.

      Dover also has a book called "Medieval Russian Ornament in Full
      Color". From the Moscow Museum of Art collection of illuminated
      manuscripts. All images are dated and a source given.

      IIRC, it's even on sale right now.
      http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486282589.html (of course,
      that's only if you order it from their website, and I don't know what
      shipping to Aus. would cost).

      Anastasia Emilianova
      Jenn Ridley
    • Alexey Kiyaikin
      Greetings all! ... Though, there s plenty of early postperiod evidence - architecture (lots of house
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 7, 2003
        <Below message lightly edited by Yana, group moderator>

        Greetings all!
        > Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
        > folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.

        Though, there's plenty of early postperiod evidence - architecture
        (lots of house carvings on izbas built in 1700s-1800s), folk songs,
        chronicles, etc. Though, embroidery is not. It suffered a lot from silver
        traders. There's plenty of evidence that in mid-1800s silver traders
        simply bought embroidered robes in villages and burned them in dozens,
        casting out silver and gold from the embroidery. Though, if we have some pieces of
        1600s & 1700s and can never tell them from those of 1800s - is it a piece
        of evidence that the change was really humble?

        Yes, there's a problem with archaeology. Novgorod ceased being a rich
        city by 1500s, and its role ceased too. Kiev was so dug here and
        there, that an archaeologist can find pieces from 1600s UNDER
        something from 1200s. But there must also be a brain in the skull.
        Lots of Kievan frescos were copied and photoed, lots of miniatures
        are still available.

        Also, there's plenty of pieces that were PROVED to be not Russian, but
        Persian, German, etc. Does that demand that they be not period only
        because of that? Does that make them less popular because of that?

        > I have found lots of sources describing what was used for embroidery,
        > but am desperately looking for patterns to use as inspiration. I
        > wanted a theme of horses, or other domestic hooved animals like goats
        > or the like. I really want to know how stylized the animals are in
        > Russian embroidery, and were there amalgamations (chimeras) of
        > animals used at all (ie, half horse, half fish, etc.)? If not this
        > theme, then I was thinking of a theme based on the water creatures
        > (russlika I think?), the women who drowned passing travellers. Or
        > other Russian fairy tales, like baba yaga.

        Anne, goats & fish were not the issue as I can see across the pics
        from the Museum of the Folk Art in Moscow. Usually, a bull, an
        elk\moose, a cock, a falcon maybe (something with a hooked beacon), a
        human being, that's almost all. Also a two-headed horse or , what is
        more likely, a ship. But all that belongs to later times than period.
        More likely is that some embroidery patterns correspond with house
        outer carvings (nalichniki, etc), they have sometimes 90% common. I've
        been in my home town recently and saw a typical embroidery pattern as a
        carved decoration on a fence in a street of wooden houses built in
        late 1800s-early 1900s. That leads to photos of old houses that can be
        obtainable somewhere, e.g., in booklets. Try to find some stuff from
        the former USSR, with photos of old Simbirsk (Lenin's birthplace) or
        Moscow. They used to publish some. There was a magazine with the title
        "Sovetski Soyuz" (USSR), issued for foreigners. That may be helpful.
        And embroidery was too often re-borrowed from each other by Persians,
        Turks, Russians, Germans, Italians, etc. Looking through the Italian
        art album I found a reproduction of "crucification" of 13** (alas, I
        forgot to copy the date and the artist's name), Christ was painted
        wearing a typical medieval tunic with embroidery. There were some
        familiar motifs in that. Not to say about silver embroidery of the
        kaftans on the 15-16-century miniatures to poems like Shakh Name or
        like. Sometimes the images\patterns are also recognizable.

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