Re: [sig] Re: early medieval Russian Embroidery! Please help!!
- In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time,
> Don't know how much help it would be but Dover has:Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
> Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal
folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:08:33 EST, MHoll@... wrote:
>In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time,Dover also has a book called "Medieval Russian Ornament in Full
>> Don't know how much help it would be but Dover has:
>> Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal
>Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
>folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.
Color". From the Moscow Museum of Art collection of illuminated
manuscripts. All images are dated and a source given.
IIRC, it's even on sale right now.
http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486282589.html (of course,
that's only if you order it from their website, and I don't know what
shipping to Aus. would cost).
- <Below message lightly edited by Yana, group moderator>
> Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, RussianThough, there's plenty of early postperiod evidence - architecture
> folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.
(lots of house carvings on izbas built in 1700s-1800s), folk songs,
chronicles, etc. Though, embroidery is not. It suffered a lot from silver
traders. There's plenty of evidence that in mid-1800s silver traders
simply bought embroidered robes in villages and burned them in dozens,
casting out silver and gold from the embroidery. Though, if we have some pieces of
1600s & 1700s and can never tell them from those of 1800s - is it a piece
of evidence that the change was really humble?
Yes, there's a problem with archaeology. Novgorod ceased being a rich
city by 1500s, and its role ceased too. Kiev was so dug here and
there, that an archaeologist can find pieces from 1600s UNDER
something from 1200s. But there must also be a brain in the skull.
Lots of Kievan frescos were copied and photoed, lots of miniatures
are still available.
Also, there's plenty of pieces that were PROVED to be not Russian, but
Persian, German, etc. Does that demand that they be not period only
because of that? Does that make them less popular because of that?
> I have found lots of sources describing what was used for embroidery,Anne, goats & fish were not the issue as I can see across the pics
> but am desperately looking for patterns to use as inspiration. I
> wanted a theme of horses, or other domestic hooved animals like goats
> or the like. I really want to know how stylized the animals are in
> Russian embroidery, and were there amalgamations (chimeras) of
> animals used at all (ie, half horse, half fish, etc.)? If not this
> theme, then I was thinking of a theme based on the water creatures
> (russlika I think?), the women who drowned passing travellers. Or
> other Russian fairy tales, like baba yaga.
from the Museum of the Folk Art in Moscow. Usually, a bull, an
elk\moose, a cock, a falcon maybe (something with a hooked beacon), a
human being, that's almost all. Also a two-headed horse or , what is
more likely, a ship. But all that belongs to later times than period.
More likely is that some embroidery patterns correspond with house
outer carvings (nalichniki, etc), they have sometimes 90% common. I've
been in my home town recently and saw a typical embroidery pattern as a
carved decoration on a fence in a street of wooden houses built in
late 1800s-early 1900s. That leads to photos of old houses that can be
obtainable somewhere, e.g., in booklets. Try to find some stuff from
the former USSR, with photos of old Simbirsk (Lenin's birthplace) or
Moscow. They used to publish some. There was a magazine with the title
"Sovetski Soyuz" (USSR), issued for foreigners. That may be helpful.
And embroidery was too often re-borrowed from each other by Persians,
Turks, Russians, Germans, Italians, etc. Looking through the Italian
art album I found a reproduction of "crucification" of 13** (alas, I
forgot to copy the date and the artist's name), Christ was painted
wearing a typical medieval tunic with embroidery. There were some
familiar motifs in that. Not to say about silver embroidery of the
kaftans on the 15-16-century miniatures to poems like Shakh Name or
like. Sometimes the images\patterns are also recognizable.