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Re: [sig] Re: early medieval Russian Embroidery! Please help!!

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  • MHoll@aol.com
    In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time, ... Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian folklore anything is
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 6, 2003
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      In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time,
      lamiastrix@... writes:

      > Don't know how much help it would be but Dover has:
      > Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal

      Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
      folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.

      Predslava.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jenn Ridley
      ... Dover also has a book called Medieval Russian Ornament in Full Color . From the Moscow Museum of Art collection of illuminated manuscripts. All images
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 6, 2003
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        On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:08:33 EST, MHoll@... wrote:

        >In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time,
        >lamiastrix@... writes:
        >
        >> Don't know how much help it would be but Dover has:
        >> Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal
        >
        >Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
        >folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.

        Dover also has a book called "Medieval Russian Ornament in Full
        Color". From the Moscow Museum of Art collection of illuminated
        manuscripts. All images are dated and a source given.

        IIRC, it's even on sale right now.
        http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486282589.html (of course,
        that's only if you order it from their website, and I don't know what
        shipping to Aus. would cost).

        jenn
        --
        Anastasia Emilianova
        Jenn Ridley
        jridley@...
      • Alexey Kiyaikin
        Greetings all! ... Though, there s plenty of early postperiod evidence - architecture (lots of house
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 7, 2003
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          <Below message lightly edited by Yana, group moderator>



          Greetings all!
          > Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
          > folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.


          Though, there's plenty of early postperiod evidence - architecture
          (lots of house carvings on izbas built in 1700s-1800s), folk songs,
          chronicles, etc. Though, embroidery is not. It suffered a lot from silver
          traders. There's plenty of evidence that in mid-1800s silver traders
          simply bought embroidered robes in villages and burned them in dozens,
          casting out silver and gold from the embroidery. Though, if we have some pieces of
          1600s & 1700s and can never tell them from those of 1800s - is it a piece
          of evidence that the change was really humble?

          Yes, there's a problem with archaeology. Novgorod ceased being a rich
          city by 1500s, and its role ceased too. Kiev was so dug here and
          there, that an archaeologist can find pieces from 1600s UNDER
          something from 1200s. But there must also be a brain in the skull.
          Lots of Kievan frescos were copied and photoed, lots of miniatures
          are still available.

          Also, there's plenty of pieces that were PROVED to be not Russian, but
          Persian, German, etc. Does that demand that they be not period only
          because of that? Does that make them less popular because of that?

          > I have found lots of sources describing what was used for embroidery,
          > but am desperately looking for patterns to use as inspiration. I
          > wanted a theme of horses, or other domestic hooved animals like goats
          > or the like. I really want to know how stylized the animals are in
          > Russian embroidery, and were there amalgamations (chimeras) of
          > animals used at all (ie, half horse, half fish, etc.)? If not this
          > theme, then I was thinking of a theme based on the water creatures
          > (russlika I think?), the women who drowned passing travellers. Or
          > other Russian fairy tales, like baba yaga.

          Anne, goats & fish were not the issue as I can see across the pics
          from the Museum of the Folk Art in Moscow. Usually, a bull, an
          elk\moose, a cock, a falcon maybe (something with a hooked beacon), a
          human being, that's almost all. Also a two-headed horse or , what is
          more likely, a ship. But all that belongs to later times than period.
          More likely is that some embroidery patterns correspond with house
          outer carvings (nalichniki, etc), they have sometimes 90% common. I've
          been in my home town recently and saw a typical embroidery pattern as a
          carved decoration on a fence in a street of wooden houses built in
          late 1800s-early 1900s. That leads to photos of old houses that can be
          obtainable somewhere, e.g., in booklets. Try to find some stuff from
          the former USSR, with photos of old Simbirsk (Lenin's birthplace) or
          Moscow. They used to publish some. There was a magazine with the title
          "Sovetski Soyuz" (USSR), issued for foreigners. That may be helpful.
          And embroidery was too often re-borrowed from each other by Persians,
          Turks, Russians, Germans, Italians, etc. Looking through the Italian
          art album I found a reproduction of "crucification" of 13** (alas, I
          forgot to copy the date and the artist's name), Christ was painted
          wearing a typical medieval tunic with embroidery. There were some
          familiar motifs in that. Not to say about silver embroidery of the
          kaftans on the 15-16-century miniatures to poems like Shakh Name or
          like. Sometimes the images\patterns are also recognizable.

          bye,
          Alex
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