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early medieval Russian Embroidery! Please help!!

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  • Anne Penrose <stanley6179@yahoo.com.au>
    Hi all, First off, I m new to the list, and I joined so I could pick all of your brains... I am trying to enter a garb competition that is on mid-year for non-
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 5, 2003
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      Hi all,

      First off, I'm new to the list, and I joined so I could pick all of
      your brains...

      I am trying to enter a garb competition that is on mid-year for non-
      western garb. I had a sniff around Byzantine, and then discovered
      Russian garb, got really interested, mainly because the form was
      exactly what I wanted to do - having layers of cuffs showing, and
      have made the base garments - underdress, over surcoatything that
      maidens wear, over tunic, and overcoat (I've forgotten the names, and
      started work at 5:30 this morning, so I'm really vague right now,
      you'll have to forgive this). I have documentation galore for all of
      this, and was even going to try to make my own temple rings (I really
      want to win this competition!!).

      I have found lots of sources describing what was used for embroidery,
      but am desperately looking for patterns to use as inspiration. I
      wanted a theme of horses, or other domestic hooved animals like goats
      or the like. I really want to know how stylized the animals are in
      Russian embroidery, and were there amalgamations (chimeras) of
      animals used at all (ie, half horse, half fish, etc.)? If not this
      theme, then I was thinking of a theme based on the water creatures
      (russlika I think?), the women who drowned passing travellers. Or
      other Russian fairy tales, like baba yaga.

      O.k., all of this is leading to the question, does anyone have any
      pictures of any of these things from vaguely period sources. Even if
      they aren't embroidery, that would then document them, and I could
      use it as valid inspiration. I am finding it very hard to find
      books, so scanned pics e-mailed to me would be very very very much
      appreciated.

      Thankyou very much in advance.

      Beatrice (in Lochac).
    • Alexandreina Dragos <lamiastrix@earthlin
      Don t know how much help it would be but Dover has: Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal Over 220 designs for permission-free use, all meticulously rendered
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 6, 2003
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        Don't know how much help it would be but Dover has:
        Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal

        Over 220 designs for permission-free use, all meticulously rendered
        from authentic Russian art and artifacts, include motifs from
        Moldovian carpets, Ukrainian Easter eggs, stove tiles, gingerbread
        molds, architectural carvings, ancient metalwork, and much more.
        Depictions of Matryoshka dolls, ceramic toys, and woodcuts of
        characters from folklore appear as well. Ideal for direct graphic art
        applications; inspiration for design, decoration, other art and craft
        projects. 226 illustrations.
        Regards,
        Reina
      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time, ... Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian folklore anything is
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 6, 2003
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          In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time,
          lamiastrix@... writes:

          > Don't know how much help it would be but Dover has:
          > Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal

          Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
          folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.

          Predslava.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jenn Ridley
          ... Dover also has a book called Medieval Russian Ornament in Full Color . From the Moscow Museum of Art collection of illuminated manuscripts. All images
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 6, 2003
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            On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:08:33 EST, MHoll@... wrote:

            >In a message dated 2/6/2003 1:46:28 PM Central Standard Time,
            >lamiastrix@... writes:
            >
            >> Don't know how much help it would be but Dover has:
            >> Russian Folk Motifs by Peter Linenthal
            >
            >Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
            >folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.

            Dover also has a book called "Medieval Russian Ornament in Full
            Color". From the Moscow Museum of Art collection of illuminated
            manuscripts. All images are dated and a source given.

            IIRC, it's even on sale right now.
            http://store.yahoo.com/doverpublications/0486282589.html (of course,
            that's only if you order it from their website, and I don't know what
            shipping to Aus. would cost).

            jenn
            --
            Anastasia Emilianova
            Jenn Ridley
            jridley@...
          • Alexey Kiyaikin
            Greetings all! ... Though, there s plenty of early postperiod evidence - architecture (lots of house
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 7, 2003
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              <Below message lightly edited by Yana, group moderator>



              Greetings all!
              > Probably nice, but not period. In spite of what is being said, Russian
              > folklore anything is as remote from our period as the 19th century.


              Though, there's plenty of early postperiod evidence - architecture
              (lots of house carvings on izbas built in 1700s-1800s), folk songs,
              chronicles, etc. Though, embroidery is not. It suffered a lot from silver
              traders. There's plenty of evidence that in mid-1800s silver traders
              simply bought embroidered robes in villages and burned them in dozens,
              casting out silver and gold from the embroidery. Though, if we have some pieces of
              1600s & 1700s and can never tell them from those of 1800s - is it a piece
              of evidence that the change was really humble?

              Yes, there's a problem with archaeology. Novgorod ceased being a rich
              city by 1500s, and its role ceased too. Kiev was so dug here and
              there, that an archaeologist can find pieces from 1600s UNDER
              something from 1200s. But there must also be a brain in the skull.
              Lots of Kievan frescos were copied and photoed, lots of miniatures
              are still available.

              Also, there's plenty of pieces that were PROVED to be not Russian, but
              Persian, German, etc. Does that demand that they be not period only
              because of that? Does that make them less popular because of that?

              > I have found lots of sources describing what was used for embroidery,
              > but am desperately looking for patterns to use as inspiration. I
              > wanted a theme of horses, or other domestic hooved animals like goats
              > or the like. I really want to know how stylized the animals are in
              > Russian embroidery, and were there amalgamations (chimeras) of
              > animals used at all (ie, half horse, half fish, etc.)? If not this
              > theme, then I was thinking of a theme based on the water creatures
              > (russlika I think?), the women who drowned passing travellers. Or
              > other Russian fairy tales, like baba yaga.

              Anne, goats & fish were not the issue as I can see across the pics
              from the Museum of the Folk Art in Moscow. Usually, a bull, an
              elk\moose, a cock, a falcon maybe (something with a hooked beacon), a
              human being, that's almost all. Also a two-headed horse or , what is
              more likely, a ship. But all that belongs to later times than period.
              More likely is that some embroidery patterns correspond with house
              outer carvings (nalichniki, etc), they have sometimes 90% common. I've
              been in my home town recently and saw a typical embroidery pattern as a
              carved decoration on a fence in a street of wooden houses built in
              late 1800s-early 1900s. That leads to photos of old houses that can be
              obtainable somewhere, e.g., in booklets. Try to find some stuff from
              the former USSR, with photos of old Simbirsk (Lenin's birthplace) or
              Moscow. They used to publish some. There was a magazine with the title
              "Sovetski Soyuz" (USSR), issued for foreigners. That may be helpful.
              And embroidery was too often re-borrowed from each other by Persians,
              Turks, Russians, Germans, Italians, etc. Looking through the Italian
              art album I found a reproduction of "crucification" of 13** (alas, I
              forgot to copy the date and the artist's name), Christ was painted
              wearing a typical medieval tunic with embroidery. There were some
              familiar motifs in that. Not to say about silver embroidery of the
              kaftans on the 15-16-century miniatures to poems like Shakh Name or
              like. Sometimes the images\patterns are also recognizable.

              bye,
              Alex
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