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Rus language question

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  • Shadow42
    Greetings to folks who might know, This is kind of a weird question. As part of my fiction project, I used a phrase he sat on his zhopa and did nothing. As
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 7, 2002
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      Greetings to folks who might know,

      This is kind of a weird question. As part of my fiction project, I used
      a phrase "he sat on his zhopa and did nothing." As far as I could tell,
      "zhopa" was the Russian equivalent of "ass". Does anyone know if this is
      wildly inappropriate usage? (my novel takes place in 965.)

      Laura
    • MHoll@aol.com
      In a message dated 10/7/2002 6:03:01 PM Central Daylight Time, ... For one, what s appropriate and what s not changes in time. Then, I have no evidence that it
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 7, 2002
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        In a message dated 10/7/2002 6:03:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
        shadow42@... writes:


        > As far as I could tell,
        > "zhopa" was the Russian equivalent of "ass". Does anyone know if this is
        > wildly inappropriate usage? (my novel takes place in 965.)
        >

        For one, what's appropriate and what's not changes in time.

        Then, I have no evidence that it would be period to that time. I'd avoid it
        because of that.

        Finally, "zhopa" is quite a bit stronger than "ass" (as "asshole" is stronger
        than "ass"). You can't even find it in a regular dictionary. Not even in
        Katzner, the Western-published and otherwise quite comprehensive biligual
        dictionary. You would certainly shock any Russian-speaking reader and pull
        them out of your story.

        In conclusion, in my opinion, as a native speaker and teacher of Russian, it
        would be, in your words, "wildly inappropriate". Shakespeare-style insults
        would work better in historical fiction even if it takes place in Russia than
        modern Russian swear words that may or may not have appeared in period.

        Masha.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alexey Kiyaikin
        Greetings Laura! ... I d rather say nothing could be missing if you used the word ass . As for the Russian word, it belongs to older (if not the eldest)
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 7, 2002
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          Greetings Laura!
          > This is kind of a weird question. As part of my fiction project, I used
          > a phrase "he sat on his zhopa and did nothing." As far as I could tell,
          > "zhopa" was the Russian equivalent of "ass". Does anyone know if this is
          > wildly inappropriate usage? (my novel takes place in 965.)

          I'd rather say nothing could be missing if you used the word "ass". As
          for the Russian word, it belongs to older (if not the eldest) lexics,
          and has some parallels in other Indo-european languages, but with meanings,
          connected with "life", "the order of things", "correctness", "comfort
          or security" -
          zhupan (west ukr) - woolen or mutton coat,
          zhupa (some Balcan Slavic languages) - a local
          administrative division unit, a territory uniting some villages,
          zhupan (extreme west ukr, some Balcan regions) -a village elder,
          joupon (fr) - you know what kind of period European clothing
          it marks, etc.
          Also, as it could be pronounced as dupa (afair,
          Chechish or Slovakian, also some ukr. dialects), we come across a
          well-known duplo (a hollow of a tree).
          It could not be off list in pagan times, as all such wording became
          inappropriate, afair, with the development of Christianity and
          courtesy, which took time.

          bye,
          Alex
        • Alexey Kiyaikin
          Sorry, no sane Russian except maybe spinsters and old communist propagandists (they save these words for indoor use between old chaps) can be shocked with the
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 8, 2002
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            Sorry,
            no sane Russian except maybe spinsters and old communist
            propagandists (they save these words for indoor use between old chaps)
            can be shocked with the word zhopa. Excuse my Russian. The thing is
            that as Kniaz can be used as an original title (as Samurai or Ronin
            needn't be converted to "knight" - but using zhopas and devoushkas
            makes your story a close twin to that damned Clockwork Orange of the
            1960s, with its Pidgin Russian. That won't make any atmosphere at all,
            excuse me again. Just see what kind of words are NOT translated and
            come from language into languages. Swears and gender markers are
            obviously not among them. Excuse me for the third time.

            Bye,
            Alex,

            from Russia with... ergm, love.
          • Shadow42
            ... Thanks!! I appreciate your advice. Now how about the word devushka for girl ? Does that seem OK? I am assuming kniaz is OK for prince . Laura
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 8, 2002
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              MHoll@... wrote:

              >In a message dated 10/7/2002 6:03:01 PM Central Daylight Time,
              >shadow42@... writes:
              >
              >
              >Finally, "zhopa" is quite a bit stronger than "ass" (as "asshole" is stronger
              >than "ass"). You can't even find it in a regular dictionary. Not even in
              >Katzner, the Western-published and otherwise quite comprehensive biligual
              >dictionary. You would certainly shock any Russian-speaking reader and pull
              >them out of your story.
              >
              >In conclusion, in my opinion, as a native speaker and teacher of Russian, it
              >would be, in your words, "wildly inappropriate". Shakespeare-style insults
              >would work better in historical fiction even if it takes place in Russia than
              >modern Russian swear words that may or may not have appeared in period.
              >
              >Masha.
              >
              Thanks!! I appreciate your advice.
              Now how about the word "devushka" for "girl"? Does that seem OK?
              I am assuming "kniaz" is OK for "prince".

              Laura

              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Alastair Millar
              Alex writes... ... Not just Balkan, in fact, as the word was used in Czech (z upa) well into the Twentieth Century. It s still readily understood, although
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 9, 2002
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                Alex writes...

                >zhupa (some Balcan Slavic languages) - a local
                >administrative division unit, a territory uniting some villages,

                Not just Balkan, in fact, as the word was used in Czech (z'upa) well into
                the Twentieth Century. It's still readily understood, although extinct as
                an administrative division today. However, I have a feeling it only came
                into use under the (post-period) Habsburgs? Do you have evidence for
                earlier use, by any chance?

                >zhupan (extreme west ukr, some Balcan regions) -a village elder,

                In Czech, the administrator of a z'upa might be referred to as a z'upan. By
                "extreme west Ukraine" I assume you mean Podkarpatska Rus (Ruthenia,
                Transcarpathia), which was of course part of the Czechoslovak First
                Republic as well.

                >Also, as it could be pronounced as dupa (afair,
                >Chechish or Slovakian, also some ukr. dialects),
                >we come across a well-known duplo (a hollow of a tree).

                In Czech this would be "dutina", which is rather different. Frankly I doubt
                an etymological relationship between 'zh' and 'd' anyway.

                >It could not be off list in pagan times, as all such wording became
                >inappropriate, afair, with the development of Christianity and
                >courtesy, which took time.

                *grin* Do we necessarily agree that the development of Christianity was
                associated with increasing courtesy?

                Cheers

                Alastair
              • MHoll@aol.com
                ... Not notably. All languages change, but strangely enough, sometimes they revert -- i.e. forms we think are completely new are really archaic. It s an
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 9, 2002
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                  In a message dated 10/9/2002 11:44:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, shadow42@... writes:

                  > I wonder if English is an extreme case, since so many different ethnic
                  > groups have contributed to English culture in that period
                  > of time.

                  Not notably. All languages change, but strangely enough, sometimes they "revert" -- i.e. forms we think are completely new are really archaic. It's an amusing little detail without much significance except for linguists.

                  As for Alex's comment that "zhopa" is not rude, I beg to differ. It's not something an educated person with good manners would say at the dinner table. Anymore than you'd say "ass" or "shit".

                  In addition, a foreigner using those words sounds MUCH worse than a native speaker using swear words. I know, I've heard it, tried it, taught my students to be cautious.

                  Humor is one of the last things you "get" in a foreign language. Swear words (any heavy slang, really) is the last thing you learn to use. Swear words in a foreigner's mough are FUNNY, ridiculous, shocking because they don't sound right, no matter how well the person speaks the language.

                  All of these reasons are why I recommend, as a teacher, native speaker, fellow writer, etc, NOT to use Russian words in your manuscript, EXCEPT for those that don't have an exact transaltion, such as "kniaz" (prince has connotations that do not correspond to Russian historical fact), or the period names for clothing detail, weapons that don't have a Western equivalent (though here, I'm not aware of any), etc.

                  In the end, it's your decision and your choice. Those are my comments and my preferences, but I'm not the one writing that book.

                  Good luck with it, and have fun!

                  Predslava
                • MHoll@aol.com
                  ... I kind of answered that in another e-mail. I d say kniaz is good because it s not exactly prince , but I wouldn t use devushka because girl or
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 9, 2002
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                    In a message dated 10/8/2002 7:54:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, shadow42@... writes:

                    > Now how about the word "devushka" for "girl"? Does that
                    > seem OK?
                    > I am assuming "kniaz" is OK for "prince".

                    I kind of answered that in another e-mail. I'd say "kniaz" is good because it's not exactly "prince", but I wouldn't use "devushka" because "girl" or "young girl" or "young lady" or whatever (it means an unmarried girl -- in her teens) will do just fine in English.

                    But as I said, it's my preference.

                    Predslava
                  • Shadow42
                    ... Actually, I ve noticed in historical fiction that swear words, endearment words and forms of address are the ones that are often kept in the original
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 9, 2002
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                      Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:

                      >Sorry,
                      >no sane Russian except maybe spinsters and old communist
                      >propagandists (they save these words for indoor use between old chaps)
                      >can be shocked with the word zhopa. Excuse my Russian. The thing is
                      >that as Kniaz can be used as an original title (as Samurai or Ronin
                      >needn't be converted to "knight" - but using zhopas and devoushkas
                      >makes your story a close twin to that damned Clockwork Orange of the
                      >1960s, with its Pidgin Russian. That won't make any atmosphere at all,
                      >excuse me again. Just see what kind of words are NOT translated and
                      >come from language into languages. Swears and gender markers are
                      >obviously not among them. Excuse me for the third time.
                      >
                      Actually, I've noticed in historical fiction that swear words,
                      'endearment words" and forms of address are the ones that are often
                      kept in the original language.

                      I noticed you used a word "old chaps", which isn't a common phrase in
                      today's English, but it is kind of a stuffy British phrase. You used it as
                      a form of creative expression.
                      So perhaps there is more flexibility in expression than you might think.

                      >
                      >Bye,
                      >Alex,
                      >
                      >from Russia with... ergm, love.
                      >
                      In other words, what you are saying is that Russian language has changed
                      markedly in 1000 years...maybe as much as English?
                      I wonder if English is an extreme case, since so many different ethnic
                      groups have contributed to English culture in that period of time.
                      While other languages (such as Hebrew) seem to not have changed nearly
                      as much.

                      Laura
                    • MHoll@aol.com
                      In a message dated 10/9/2002 5:13:47 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Oh, I meant it s about the last a foreigner learns to use PROPERLY! Everybody wants to learn
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 9, 2002
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                        In a message dated 10/9/2002 5:13:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
                        shadow42@... writes:


                        > Interestingly enough, the foreigners in America usually know how to
                        > swear first thing! My understanding is that these are the FIRST words a
                        > foreigner uses!

                        Oh, I meant it's about the last a foreigner learns to use PROPERLY! Everybody
                        wants to learn to say swear words, but it doesn't sound quite as effective
                        from a foreigner. Subconsciously, you more or less assume that person doesn't
                        really know what they're saying.

                        > For curiosity, how do you translate the word "druzhina"?
                        >
                        Company, own/personal company/guard, bodyguards, variations thereof.

                        It's simply the kniaz's own company of professional warriors, as opposed to
                        the levies often used in major conflicts.

                        I might use "druzhina," once I established its meaning/function.

                        The general wisdom is not to overdo foreign words.

                        Predslava.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Shadow42
                        ... Interestingly enough, the foreigners in America usually know how to swear first thing! My understanding is that these are the FIRST words a foreigner uses!
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 9, 2002
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                          MHoll@... wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          >Humor is one of the last things you "get" in a foreign language. Swear words (any heavy slang, really) is the last thing you learn to use. Swear words in a foreigner's mough are FUNNY, ridiculous, shocking because they don't sound right, no matter how well the person speaks the language.
                          >
                          Interestingly enough, the foreigners in America usually know how to
                          swear first thing! My understanding is that these are the FIRST words a
                          foreigner uses!

                          >
                          >
                          >All of these reasons are why I recommend, as a teacher, native speaker, fellow writer, etc, NOT to use Russian words in your manuscript, EXCEPT for those that don't have an exact transaltion, such as "kniaz" (prince has connotations that do not correspond to Russian historical fact), or the period names for clothing detail, weapons that don't have a Western equivalent (though here, I'm not aware of any), etc.
                          >
                          For curiosity, how do you translate the word "druzhina"?


                          Laura
                        • Alexey Kiyaikin
                          Greetings Alastair! ... Can t be an academic sourse. Of course there is a possibility that dupa is a kind of an euphemistic device from times it became
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 9, 2002
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                            Greetings Alastair!

                            > In Czech this would be "dutina", which is rather different. Frankly I doubt
                            > an etymological relationship between 'zh' and 'd' anyway.
                            Can't be an academic sourse. Of course there is a possibility that
                            dupa is a kind of an euphemistic device from times it became shocking
                            already, but I found that word somewhere in a rather freely organized
                            speech (i.e. very few taboos)

                            > *grin* Do we necessarily agree that the development of Christianity was
                            > associated with increasing courtesy?

                            Nivvah! I meant that it was parallel, and "four-leter words" were
                            outlawed both by rules of courtesy (to please, and not to shock) and
                            Christianity (no curses except by Hierarchs).

                            bye,
                            Alex
                          • Alexey Kiyaikin
                            Greetings Laura! ... Not all of them. Excuse my French, bastard due to neutral medieval term, is widely spread through languages. But lots of
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 10, 2002
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                              Greetings Laura!
                              > Actually, I've noticed in historical fiction that swear words,
                              > 'endearment words" and forms of address are the ones that are often
                              > kept in the original language.
                              Not all of them. Excuse my French, "bastard" due to neutral
                              medieval term, is widely spread through languages. But lots of
                              English-speaking curses are not transported, except maybe that
                              notorious "shit!". I (being a language teacher once) make it like
                              this. In older times people couldn't transport unknown words exactly
                              preserbving their sound. So, they either converted them into something
                              familiar and then remembered it, or wrote it down, again limited by
                              their abilities to hear and understand. That's why, e.g., in Russian
                              the German word Teller (plate) became "tarelka", and the famous
                              "Scottish Pirate" Paul Jones while serving the Russian Queen, was
                              addressed as "Pavel Iones" - sheer transliteration, in modern words.
                              So, foreign words were either translated (afair, in Ruissian there are lots of such
                              words taken from the Bible) or suffer a serious change in
                              pronunciation, to adjust it to the other language's phonetics.
                              Later, as languages became more intertwining due to more contacts
                              between different nations, later to invention of radio, tape recorder
                              and TV, it became more familiar to remember foreign words exactly as
                              they sound. So, transcription became more popular. Nowadays nobody
                              would address don Juan as "Don Djuan", though due to French
                              pronunciation of the Spanish name, in 19 century that famous Spaniard
                              came into world (and Russian as well) culture under "Djuan", not "Huan",
                              as it was intended to sound. Also, nobody in Russia takes into
                              consideration that Harry Harrison is published in Russian as Garri
                              Garrison, and George Harrison - as George Harrison, and they share one
                              and the same surname! Just a tradition, that elder times' borrowings
                              and borrowings from literature are heavily transformed, often with
                              transliteration, and 20th century popups are transcribed or given in
                              Latin script whatever the language is. So, IMH (and a bit scientific)
                              O in medieval times the
                              contacts between nations were so scarce that non-related languages
                              didn't borrow words from each other literally as they were. With forms
                              of addresses there is another piece of cake. - you see, once I found a fine description of what a good work of a
                              translator is. It's when you translate a passage with a Vietnamese
                              meal and make a sentence with "dressed the rice with Ngyok Am", never
                              translating it as "hot fish-and-vegetables sauce", which creates the
                              atmosphere. But we may do such only with words that have no parallel
                              in our mothertongue or are translated by clumsy word combinations.
                              For example, I hardly imagine a translator that will replace
                              Stanislav Lem's Sepulki, the word he invented for a story from "Star
                              dieries of Ion Tikhiy" (Wojtek, if you read this, excuse my Polish
                              :-) )with any other word. And, worse or better, but we have parallels
                              to most addressing forms. We replace them only when we need
                              atmosphere, but it has both sides, causing confusion at back
                              translation. In Russian there are already several versions of Central
                              European titles in fiction (as Alastair mentioned recently) - Prince
                              and Knyaz are both used because of such "atmospheric" drawbacks at
                              chain translation.
                              A nice play of words, that can't be translated into English - after
                              chain translating into 20 languages a passage from Gogol "in the
                              morning she used to eat boiled beetroots and bragged as women do"
                              once became "Having drunk the compote she threw old rabbish out of the hut
                              and he happily beat his tamtam" (a funny but real story published by a
                              translator). So, it's dangerous to leave too much
                              untratslated to create the atmosphere. Hope you understood what I
                              meant. Sorry I couldn't do that in less words. The thing is that
                              "ass" sounds no less atmospheric than "shopa", but leaves nobody at a
                              loss what the author meant.

                              >
                              > I noticed you used a word "old chaps", which isn't a common phrase in
                              > today's English, but it is kind of a stuffy British phrase. You used it as
                              > a form of creative expression.
                              Gee... :-) and I really am a certified school teacher of British English,
                              EC-biased, cert by Longman given last year.

                              > So perhaps there is more flexibility in expression than you might think.
                              >
                              Between BE and AmE maybe. But usually parts of body have their names
                              have their names in every languages. In medieval times they DID speak
                              a different language, so a person who stuffs the story with Shuitsas,
                              Desnitsas, Goi Esis, Zdrav Bud's, may forget that they spoke a
                              completely different language and their speech needed translation -
                              and what makes you translate one words and not tharslate the others?

                              bye,
                              Alex
                            • Alexey Kiyaikin
                              Greetings! ... I d leave it untact or translate it with something like eored . Druzhina is 1) a specific eastern European thing that makes some historians
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 10, 2002
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                                Greetings!
                                > All of these reasons are why I recommend, as a teacher, native speaker, fellow writer, etc,
                                > NOT to use Russian words in your manuscript, EXCEPT for those that don't have an exact
                                > transaltion, such as "kniaz" (prince has connotations that do not correspond to Russian
                                > historical fact), or the period names for clothing detail, weapons that don't have a Western
                                > equivalent (though here, I'm not aware of any), etc.
                                >>
                                > For curiosity, how do you translate the word "druzhina"?

                                I'd leave it untact or translate it with something like "eored".
                                Druzhina is 1) a specific eastern European thing that makes some
                                historians state Old Rus a non-feudal state until 13-14 centuries, due
                                to leading role of Druzhinas (unlike paladinate with the Franks) and
                                lack of feuds until 13 century; 2) a derivate from old Sanscrite root
                                "dru", meaning "coming together, sharing same goal".
                                Bye,
                                Alex
                              • LiudmilaV@aol.com
                                In a message dated 10/8/2002 3:31:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I would be shocked if I saw it in a historic novel used by the author, not a character. I am
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 11, 2002
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                                  In a message dated 10/8/2002 3:31:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                                  Posadnik@... writes:


                                  > Sorry,
                                  > no sane Russian except maybe spinsters and old communist
                                  > propagandists (they save these words for indoor use between old chaps)
                                  > can be shocked with the word zhopa.

                                  I would be shocked if I saw it in a historic novel used by the author, not a
                                  character. I am quite sure I am neither a spinster nor a communist
                                  propagandist. I simply prefer that people use milder terms when appropriate.
                                  I might not quit reading, though -- Orson Scott Card used some awful Russian
                                  words in his Earthfall series, and I was annoyed but kept reading.

                                  Liudmila

                                  PS: Of course, you are a man, Alex, so you might just not get this...my
                                  husband doesn't.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                  Greetings Liudmila! The thing is first we discussed right the case of strong expressions in fiction used by a character. And such case never annoys anyone in
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Oct 12, 2002
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                                    Greetings Liudmila!

                                    The thing is first we discussed right the case of strong expressions
                                    in fiction used by a character. And such case never annoys anyone in
                                    Russian reading public, as such books are often included into
                                    different literature award lists these times.

                                    And indeed, having found such words in a book, were you shocked or
                                    annoyed?
                                    :-)

                                    bye,
                                    Alex
                                  • Shadow42
                                    ... I m not shocked/annoyed by strong expressions in fiction! Not really being bilingual, I wouldn t know how I d feel reading a novel in another language
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Oct 12, 2002
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                                      Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:

                                      >Greetings Liudmila!
                                      >
                                      >The thing is first we discussed right the case of strong expressions
                                      >in fiction used by a character. And such case never annoys anyone in
                                      >Russian reading public, as such books are often included into
                                      >different literature award lists these times.
                                      >
                                      >And indeed, having found such words in a book, were you shocked or
                                      >annoyed?
                                      >:-)
                                      >
                                      I'm not shocked/annoyed by strong expressions in fiction! Not really
                                      being bilingual, I wouldn't know how I'd feel reading a novel in another
                                      language which uses English slang inappropriately. I would probably
                                      forgive the author if I thought it was a good book.

                                      Actually this particular quote wasn't a curse, but just a few soldiers
                                      criticizing their Kniaz, saying "he sat on his zhopa ("butt, bum, ass")
                                      & failed to follow up on his attack.

                                      My problem gets a lot worse in the scene where the main protag curses
                                      out a Byzantine priest by telling him to have relations with a sheep (in
                                      the Khazarian language, which no one knows, which I have sort of had to
                                      'invent'.)

                                      Grin!

                                      Laura
                                    • LiudmilaV@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 10/12/2002 12:51:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Well, Alex, you got me -- I was annoyed, not shocked. I was annoyed because I read
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Oct 12, 2002
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                                        In a message dated 10/12/2002 12:51:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                                        Posadnik@... writes:


                                        > And indeed, having found such words in a book, were you shocked or
                                        > annoyed?
                                        > :-)
                                        >

                                        Well, Alex, you got me -- I was annoyed, not shocked. I was annoyed because
                                        I read practically every other book by the same author, and he never used any
                                        such bad language in English. Of course, he wasn't counting on too many
                                        Russians reading the story and actually understanding what those words meant.
                                        Somehow, this rubbed me the wrong way.

                                        As for the use of the word in Laura's novel -- there is an archaic phrase
                                        that would apply to the situation: "sidnem sidit."

                                        Liudmila



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                        Greetings Laura! I really think he sits on his bum/ass while... is more appropriate. In any epoch soldiers are rude enough to use ass easily. As for
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Oct 13, 2002
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                                          Greetings Laura!

                                          I really think "he sits on his bum/ass while..." is more appropriate.
                                          In any epoch soldiers are rude enough to use "ass" easily.

                                          As for Khazarisms, being a bilingual you can easily find Oljas
                                          Suleimenov's "Az i Ia", with a nice piece of a Turkophone's
                                          linguistic/literature survey, alternative to "main stream" studies of
                                          medieval Turcic nations of the ex-USSR. Being a Kazakh and a
                                          well-known writer, he Suleimenov surveys the Turcic roots of Slovo o
                                          Polku Igoreve, possible roots of the whole Turcic nation and gives a
                                          different view on Rus-Turk relations since from Khazars to Cumans. If
                                          youn have Cyrillic fonts, go to www.Yandex.ru and type "Suleimenov" in
                                          Russian in the search window. There will be at
                                          least one site of the ten given to you (he was recently
                                          Kazakhstan's Minister of Culture) with this book by Suleimenov. You
                                          will be given some ideas how to replace one Turcic traces with some
                                          other, related, ones.

                                          bye,
                                          Alex
                                        • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                          Greetings Liudmila! Maybe that will be indeed a solution - but for Russians only. As keeping a word not translated may be OK, it is VERY hard to understand
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Oct 13, 2002
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                                            Greetings Liudmila!

                                            Maybe that will be indeed a solution - but for Russians only. As
                                            keeping a word not translated may be OK, it is VERY hard to
                                            understand phrases on same terms. Just remember what it can be for a
                                            Russian native speaker that reads Strugatskys' "Monday starts on Saturday", with all
                                            that Vybegallo's kitchen French, but for the footnotes with
                                            translation, or Tolstoy's War and Peace, with whole pages in French.

                                            bye,
                                            Alex
                                          • Shadow42
                                            ... Can you translate that? Laura
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Oct 13, 2002
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                                              LiudmilaV@... wrote:

                                              >In a message dated 10/12/2002 12:51:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                                              >Posadnik@... writes:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>And indeed, having found such words in a book, were you shocked or
                                              >>annoyed?
                                              >>:-)
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >Well, Alex, you got me -- I was annoyed, not shocked. I was annoyed because
                                              >I read practically every other book by the same author, and he never used any
                                              >such bad language in English. Of course, he wasn't counting on too many
                                              >Russians reading the story and actually understanding what those words meant.
                                              >Somehow, this rubbed me the wrong way.
                                              >
                                              >As for the use of the word in Laura's novel -- there is an archaic phrase
                                              >that would apply to the situation: "sidnem sidit."
                                              >
                                              >Liudmila
                                              >
                                              Can you translate that?

                                              Laura
                                            • Shadow42
                                              ... I m sorry, but I m not bilingual & don t have Cyrilic fonts. What s this site about? I did find some Turkic words from various cultures, using various
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Oct 13, 2002
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                                                Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:

                                                >
                                                >As for Khazarisms, being a bilingual you can easily find Oljas
                                                >Suleimenov's "Az i Ia", with a nice piece of a Turkophone's
                                                >linguistic/literature survey, alternative to "main stream" studies of
                                                >medieval Turcic nations of the ex-USSR. Being a Kazakh and a
                                                >well-known writer, he Suleimenov surveys the Turcic roots of Slovo o
                                                >Polku Igoreve, possible roots of the whole Turcic nation and gives a
                                                >different view on Rus-Turk relations since from Khazars to Cumans. If
                                                >youn have Cyrillic fonts, go to www.Yandex.ru and type "Suleimenov" in
                                                >Russian in the search window.
                                                >
                                                I"m sorry, but I"m not bilingual & don't have Cyrilic fonts. What's this
                                                site about?
                                                I did find some Turkic words from various cultures, using various online
                                                lexicons including the Codex Cumanicus. As I said, I can't vouch for
                                                their appropriateness...but then again, since there are no living
                                                speakers of the language, I'm not sure if anyone else can either.

                                                Laura
                                              • LiudmilaV@aol.com
                                                In a message dated 10/13/2002 4:11:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Not really -- it s an idiom. Something like sits sitting, meaning that the subject of the
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Oct 14, 2002
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                                                  In a message dated 10/13/2002 4:11:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                                                  shadow42@... writes:


                                                  > As for the use of the word in Laura's novel -- there is an archaic phrase
                                                  > >that would apply to the situation: "sidnem sidit."
                                                  > >
                                                  > >Liudmila
                                                  > >
                                                  > Can you translate that?
                                                  >
                                                  > Laura
                                                  >

                                                  Not really -- it's an idiom. Something like "sits sitting," meaning that the
                                                  subject of the comment won't move from his bum. Probably not something you
                                                  won't to really use in a book, though.

                                                  Liudmila


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                                  Gretings Laura! ... it s not about something. Yandex.ru is the most popular Russian search system, I don t remember the exact address of Suleimenov s work, it
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Oct 14, 2002
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                                                    Gretings Laura!
                                                    > I"m sorry, but I"m not bilingual & don't have Cyrilic fonts. What's this
                                                    > site about?
                                                    it's not about something. Yandex.ru is the most popular Russian search
                                                    system, I don't remember the exact address of Suleimenov's work, it
                                                    moved recently.
                                                    > I did find some Turkic words from various cultures, using various online
                                                    > lexicons including the Codex Cumanicus. As I said, I can't vouch for
                                                    > their appropriateness...but then again, since there are no living
                                                    > speakers of the language, I'm not sure if anyone else can either.
                                                    >
                                                    Suleimenov made a nice piece of work back in 1960s, it was not
                                                    officially banned, but they tried to put it to oblivion. The work has
                                                    two parts, the second one is the most argueable, it studies the
                                                    possible links between the Shumerians and the Turcic languages. But
                                                    the first part surveys the well-known 12-century Slovo o Polku Igoreve
                                                    and states (with lots of proof) that that piece of literature 1) has
                                                    no ending, 2) suffered greatly from an unknown copyist of the 16
                                                    century who didn't know history and the language of the 12 century
                                                    well and marred the brilliant work, 3) the work has much more Turcic
                                                    in the body of the hext than it was officially stated, even marking
                                                    the pronunciation differences between the Kipchak dialects the two khans
                                                    were speaking, as those times a literate man knew Kipchak as much as a
                                                    literate 19-century man knew French. It was a great thing, to search
                                                    through the book using the knowledge of Turcic (Cumans' languages and
                                                    Kazakh belong to the same Kipchak branch of Turcic languages). For
                                                    example, Suleimenov mentioned (in one chapter) that the names of nomad
                                                    tribes in pre-Mongol times are words that mark family relations, and
                                                    reminds how - really piously - the Kipchaks treated the relations by
                                                    marriage (khan Artak (Otrak in Russian chronicles) who came into the
                                                    egend about wormwood, even helped the Georgian tsar Roman defend his
                                                    land from the outnumbering Seljuk army, as the tsar was married to his
                                                    daughter), and Igor actually raided the lands of his father-in-law,
                                                    and his deeds marked the time when the holiness of those ties was
                                                    broken (before that the Kipchaks really didn't raid their relatives'
                                                    lands). Also, Suleimenov brings an alternative pivcture of
                                                    inter-relations between different Turcic nations/languages, that's why
                                                    I advised to look his book through.
                                                    bye,
                                                    Alex
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