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Re: [sig] Some stuff recently found

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  • eclipsek
    ... I d try to learn how to read Russian for that - is it possible to you to send scans via email or something? - not sure enough about webpages to give you an
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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      Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik wrote:

      >
      >BTW: does the construction of the homepage allow to post (and read it after
      >that!!!) some Russian text (not as a scanned picture)? I've got some
      >interesting materials on folk songs with tunes (collected 1740-1760, Kiev- and
      >Novgorod-bound) that won't be understandable in English.
      >
      I'd try to learn how to read Russian for that - is it possible to you to
      send scans via email or something? - not sure enough about webpages to
      give you an answer to your question.

      -Kataryna
    • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
      Greetings Kataryna! ... No problem with that except time (I have no scanner of my own, so I have to ask somebody to scan something for me and then carry it on
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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        Greetings Kataryna!

        > I'd try to learn how to read Russian for that - is it possible to you to
        > send scans via email or something? - not sure enough about webpages to
        > give you an answer to your question.

        No problem with that except time (I have no scanner of my own, so I have to ask
        somebody to scan something for me and then carry it on 3'' dickettes to work,
        that takes days sometimes). But imagine a situation: I have a full edition of a
        book of songs, first published about 1760. A song is a 1-2'' strip of violin
        tunes and 1-3 pages of text. It will be too much in kilobytes to scan it
        all(and send it all, btw). That'd be much better if we could send scanned tunes
        and the rest in txt format. Of course, if the software at
        slavic.freeservers.com or elsewhere can understand Russian (I posess a
        Russian-language MS Word, MS Windows &all, but can't say if it's enough simply
        to download Russian fonts to your computer - I'm no specialist in that). But
        all in all, I can send SOMETHING of that.

        bye,
        Alex.
      • Anne Ferlat
        Dear Alexey where is the information on the site (I read Russian but I did not find it) ? Thank you. Anne
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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          Dear Alexey

          where is the information on the site (I read Russian but I did not find it)
          ?
          Thank you.


          Anne
        • Kseniia Smol'nyanina
          Alex wrote: BTW: does the construction of the homepage allow to post (and read it after that!!!) some Russian text (not as a scanned picture)? I ve got some
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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            Alex wrote:

            BTW: does the construction of the homepage allow to post (and read it after
            that!!!) some Russian text (not as a scanned picture)? I've got some
            interesting materials on folk songs with tunes (collected 1740-1760, Kiev- and
            Novgorod-bound) that won't be understandable in English.


            Hi, Alex -

            Who put together the collection? What kinds of songs are there? I'd love to see these! I've got a scanner - any chance I could get you to mail me some photocopies, and I could scan them in and post them to the web page? I could also do transliterations/translations. (Well, you could probably do them better, but I was trying to save you some time!)

            -- Kseniia, always on the lookout for new folk songs


            *********************************************<br>
            Kseniia Smol'nyanina MKA: Christine Jacobs<br>
            Shire of Dragon's Mist Portland, Oregon<br> http://www.geocities.com/chrstnj<br>
            *********************************************
          • eclipsek@telusplanet.net
            ... I understand - I have a scanner and still have no time to scan stuff. I m sure that for reading russian all I d have to do is download the windows Russian
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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              Quoting Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>:

              >
              > Greetings Kataryna!
              >
              > > I'd try to learn how to read Russian for that - is it possible to you to
              > > send scans via email or something? - not sure enough about webpages to
              > > give you an answer to your question.
              >
              > No problem with that except time (I have no scanner of my own, so I have to
              > ask
              > somebody to scan something for me and then carry it on 3'' dickettes to
              > work,
              > that takes days sometimes).

              I understand - I have a scanner and still have no time to scan stuff.
              I'm sure that for reading russian all I'd have to do is download the windows
              Russian language stuff - to write it I'd need the font, and to get used to the
              keyboard.
              I'm no computer expert either, but I'm willing to try and see if something
              you send works on my computer. Why don't you try uploading a sample text
              (actually try sending a russian word document) to the files at the SIG site
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SIG/
              You have to register as a yahoo member if you haven't. (Sorry for the step by
              step - I'm used to discussing this with people who've never used the site
              attached to the mailing lists).

              BTW is there anyone else on SIG that is interested in Slavic music. I'd like
              to research it more but have other project to be done first. If someone has a
              class handout they can share that contains a good overview, I'd love to see it.

              ... one of these days (when my other projects are closer to finished) I'll
              write the little bits I've found out about the Ukrainian minstrels.
              From "Ukrainian Minstrels: And the Blind Shall Sing"by Natalie Kononenko.
              http://www.mesharpe.com/books.asp
              It isn't specifically about period but it's the only english language book I
              could find easily about Ukrainian minstrels.

              -Kataryna
            • Elizabeth Lear
              ... Ask, and ye shall receive! http://indra.com/~eliz/SCA/presentation1.2.txt -Yelizaveta
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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                >BTW is there anyone else on SIG that is interested in Slavic music.
                >If someone has a class handout they can share that contains a good
                >overview, I'd love to see it.
                > -Kataryna

                Ask, and ye shall receive!

                http://indra.com/~eliz/SCA/presentation1.2.txt

                -Yelizaveta
              • eclipsek@telusplanet.net
                Thank you. Do you have a bibliography for the article? -Kataryna
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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                  Thank you.
                  Do you have a bibliography for the article?
                  -Kataryna
                • Elizabeth Lear
                  Whoops, sorry - I ve just appended the bilio to the file, and included it below as well. There s another link to the handout:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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                    Whoops, sorry - I've just appended the bilio to the file, and included
                    it below as well.

                    There's another link to the handout:

                    http://indra.com/~eliz/SCA/handout1.1.txt


                    -Yelizaveta


                    BIBLIOGRAPHY

                    Bakst, James A History of Russian-Soviet Music. Dodd, Mead & Co, New
                    York 1966: pp 3-16

                    Leonard, Richard Anthony A History of Russian Music. The MacMillan
                    Co, New York 1957: pp 11-25

                    Lvov, Nikolai and Ivan Prach A Collection of Russian Folk Songs UMI
                    Reasearch press, Ann Arbor, MI 1987

                    Mizynec, Victor Folk Instruments of Ukraine. Bayda Books, Doncaster,
                    Australia 1987.

                    Reeder, Roberta, trans and ed Russian Folk Lyrics. Indiana University
                    Press, Bloomington, IN 1993

                    Riha, Thomas, ed Readings in Russian Civilization, Volume 1: Russia
                    Before Peter the Great, 900-1700. University of Chicago Press,
                    Chicago, IL 1964.

                    Seaman, Gerald R. History of Russian Music, Volume 1: From Its Origins
                    to Dargomyzhsky. Frederick A. Praeger, New York 1967: pp 1-54

                    Swan, Alfred J. Russian Music and Its Sources in Chant and Folk-Song.
                    WW Norton & Co, New York 1973: pp10-47

                    Tcherepnin, Alexander Anthology of Russian Music. M.P. Belaieff, Bonn
                    1972


                    (end)
                  • kataryna_dragonweaver
                    Thanks. -Kataryna
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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                      Thanks.
                      -Kataryna
                    • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                      Greetings Kseniia! ... Kirsha Danilov s songs , first edited in late 1700s, collected by order of famous factory owner Demidov, from of the Demidov clan that
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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                        Greetings Kseniia!

                        >Who put together the collection?
                        "Kirsha Danilov's songs", first edited in late 1700s, collected by order of
                        famous factory owner Demidov, from of the Demidov clan that owned about half
                        factories in the Urals in the 18th century. The collection was put together by
                        some Kirsha (Cyrill) Danilov, who was traced in the factory documents and some
                        notes by Demidov. According to the notes, the songs were written down in 1740s,
                        and decades before they were performed by Kirsha, who learned them from his
                        father, a descendant of a Skomorokh dynasty (the word Skomorokh wasn't
                        mentioned in the documents, but there were no other minstrels with dynasties in
                        Russia). The author (performer) lived in the Urals, where he (and his father?)
                        was taken from the North of Russia, to work at a factory during the reign of
                        Peter I. Mine is the first full edition of the book, so the editor can also be
                        named the one who put the collection together. The tunes are (for the first
                        time since first edition) were a joint work of Kirsha and somebody who knew how
                        to write the tunes down, and done as tunes for the violin.

                        >What kinds of songs are there?

                        Different ones. There are some Bylinas, we have already had some quarrel about
                        it at the Kaganate. The Bylinas are Kiev- and Novgorod-bound, that proves once
                        again that Kirsha first lived in Arkhangelsk region. There are some historic
                        songs (of later time), about Ivan IV's reign time and later, they are
                        Moscovia-bound and some are about the conquest of the Urals in 1500-1700s.
                        There are some "everyday" songs, and some songs that were traditionally
                        censored in earlier editions, as they are, ergm, ecstatic. It is a common
                        mistake, made by first scholars of folk lore (digging not in village
                        storytellers but books like Afanasiv), that "chastity is characteristic of the
                        Russian fairy tale", though even Afanasiev worked with dozens of texts that
                        belonged to traditional themes (like Baba Yaga) and could by no means be
                        offered to children. The same with the songs, as the wedding ceremony was too
                        closely connected with the cult of fertility and thus "censored" repertoir was
                        in use. There are at least two such songs in the book, and they indeed carry
                        the carnival-like spirit that reminds well of, say, Bocaccio or Chaucer.

                        >I'd love to see these! I've got a scanner - any chance I could get >you to
                        mail me some photocopies, and I could scan them in and post >them to the web
                        page?

                        Well, thanks really. But, you see, I live not in Moscow, Idaho, but in Moscow,
                        Russia, and posting of 200-300 pages photocopied is about same trouble as
                        sending 20-30 megabytes via email (it's easy to copy a document but costs a
                        little fortune/lots to copy a book, also some trouble with posting something
                        big to the US). The thing is that the "original" editor used by you English
                        native speakers, does not have Russian fonts and can't understand Russian
                        electronic text, so I can't send the lyrics in .txt format already. The part of
                        the song that really needs .jpg format, is 10-20 square inches of the song
                        tunes per song.

                        >I could also do transliterations/translations. (Well, you could >probably do
                        them better, but I was trying to save you some time!)

                        Thanks a lot. We could do the work as joint effort, BTW

                        bye,
                        Alex

                        P.S. And, BTW, why not have a downloadable source of Russian fonts, etc at SIG
                        homepage? Russian is too easy to read (I won't say anything about Grammar, but
                        we don't need it in songs). Paul, if you are reading this - what'd you say?
                      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                        Greetings Kataryna! Yes, I m a Yahoo member, that is a way, yes. About the minstrels, some info not period at all. In 1970s (80s???) about the nicest piece of
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 5, 2002
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                          Greetings Kataryna!

                          Yes, I'm a Yahoo member, that is a way, yes. About the minstrels, some info not
                          period at all. In 1970s (80s???) about the nicest piece of poetry concerning
                          Ukrainian minstrels was written by Vitaly Korotich (more known as chief editor
                          of Ogonyok democratic magazine during Perestroyka). It was translated into
                          Russian by a brilliant Russian poet Yunna Moritz, and became a song with music
                          by Sergey Nikitin. Sometimes it was performed in Ukrainian, which was equally
                          touching. So, if you need to see how the Ukrainians could feel their minstrels'
                          way, try to find it as a poem or a song - "Poslednaya Pros'ba Starogo Lirnika"
                          (Last Wish of an Old Lyre Player), or "Maidan" ("market square"). It portrays
                          the thing, though not documentally but psychologically.

                          bye,
                          Alex.
                        • yanajenn
                          ... etc at SIG ... Grammar, but ... you say? T%his is actually in the works for the Russian Knowledge Page, although I am a bit behind in updating and
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 6, 2002
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                            --- "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@m...> wrote:

                            > P.S. And, BTW, why not have a downloadable source of Russian fonts,
                            etc at SIG
                            > homepage? Russian is too easy to read (I won't say anything about
                            Grammar, but
                            > we don't need it in songs). Paul, if you are reading this - what'd
                            you say?

                            T%his is actually in the works for the Russian Knowledge Page,
                            although I am a bit behind in updating and maintaining it, as many are
                            aware (more on that in the next message).

                            If you can send me the music info in a Russian font, I can transfer it
                            into readable text for a web browser. The RKP would be a good place
                            to have some music info.

                            --Yana
                          • Kseniia Smol'nyanina
                            Hi again, Alex - Shoot, I completely forgot that you re in Moscow! *grumble* In that case I understand the issue with photocopies, etc. (I ve done research
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 6, 2002
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                              Hi again, Alex -

                              Shoot, I completely forgot that you're in Moscow! *grumble* In that case I understand the issue with photocopies, etc. (I've done research over there myself.)

                              I'd love to somehow work with you on this project, if we can figure out how to do it. This is exactly the kind of resource I've always wanted to find! I know quite a few of the folk songs collected in this century by Dmitri Pokrovski, but I would love to find some that are arguably more period, not to mention songs for solo voice (it's hard to find people who sing in the Russian folk style over here!).

                              Let's talk off the list and see if there is some way we can do this together. I speak Russian, so that's a help, I think. Could you send me the bibliographical info on the book? Maybe there's a tiny possibility that I can find a copy in the US and get my hands on it through interlibrary loan.

                              -- Kseniia, wishing she was back in Moscow
                            • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                              Greetings Kseniia! Here s the bibliographical info of the book. Drevniye Rossiiskiye Stikhotvoreniya sobraniye Kirsheiu Danilovym under editorship of
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 9, 2002
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                                Greetings Kseniia!

                                Here's the bibliographical info of the book.

                                "Drevniye Rossiiskiye Stikhotvoreniya sobraniye Kirsheiu Danilovym"
                                under editorship of A.A.Gorelov, S.Petersburg, "Tropa Troyanova" 2000 ("Polnoye
                                Sobraniye Russkikh Bylin" series). The edition isn't academic, but they comment
                                extentively on all the points that disagree with some editions (instead of
                                giving ALL the variants), and put letters in italics in places where modern
                                rules of spelling disagree with the original variant of 18 century.

                                bye,
                                Alex.
                              • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                                Greetings Yana! ... Sorry, I can t understand the idea. I can t send the music in Russian font, as it s a kind of picture. There s a great lot of lyrics for
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 9, 2002
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                                  Greetings Yana!


                                  >If you can send me the music info in a Russian font, I can transfer >it
                                  >into readable text for a web browser. The RKP would be a good place
                                  >to have some music info.



                                  Sorry, I can't understand the idea. I can't send the music in Russian font, as
                                  it's a kind of picture. There's a great lot of lyrics for every tune (3 pages
                                  each song at average). Do you mean this?

                                  bye,
                                  Alex.
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