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What people wore in period.

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
    Greetings! Sorry if I say smth wrong. I am sitting (at work) in the middle of the night in my dark dark blues, and there s a wish to inflict something good
    Message 1 of 9 , May 30 6:34 PM
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      Greetings!

      Sorry if I say smth wrong. I am sitting (at work) in the middle of the night in
      my dark dark blues, and there's a wish "to inflict something good" as the
      Russians say.

      So, one hint for re-creating Russian garb of the period.

      We see the images of the Scythians. We see the images of the Kuman sculptures
      (Babas). We know what oriental motifs were adopted by the Russians in the time
      of the Kuman invasion. Now one more idea. The Kumans also inhabited the steppes
      of the eastern Turkestan (Kucha, Uighuria, etc), and left some Steppe
      (not-Chinese) influence there. So, when we have a presence of some motif in the
      costume in both regions, we can say that it was brought by the Steppe nomads
      (of course I can't make the assumption that was Kuman influence).

      Also, funeral dress preserves some very archaic costume elements, and we may as
      well see them in earlier period. E.G. the traditional cut for trousers (two
      tubes and the Lastovitsa between) was preserved in XIX century traditional
      funeral clothes. As we see almost identical cut of funeral shirts for a XIX
      century boy and XVI century tsar Ivan IV and two of his kniazes, we can state
      that at least one or two centuries before same type shirts were considered most
      official/show-off ones.

      Maybe this wil help somebody.

      bye,
      Alex.


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    • Erin-Lee McGuire
      Here s an odd one: Anybody out there have an idea of how big a Princely Druzhina would be? Are we talking a large group of body guards, or an army? (I m
      Message 2 of 9 , May 31 5:41 PM
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        Here's an odd one:

        Anybody out there have an idea of how big a Princely Druzhina would
        be? Are we talking a large group of body guards, or an army? (I'm
        thinking of the Pre-Mongol period here).

        Yours,
        Nadezhda Toranova, Voevoda Seagirta
      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 6/2/2002 11:38:22 AM Central Daylight Time, ... More like a company, definitely not an army. When Alexander Nevsky fought the Teutonic
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 2, 2002
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          In a message dated 6/2/2002 11:38:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
          nadjabear@... writes:


          > Anybody out there have an idea of how big a Princely Druzhina would
          > be? Are we talking a large group of body guards, or an army?

          More like a company, definitely not an army. When Alexander Nevsky fought the
          Teutonic Knights on Lake Peipus, he had mustered the Novgorodian volunteers.

          The size probably depended 1) on the wealth of the Prince, 2) on his
          reputation, 3) on what a city would allow. While most cities didn't have much
          say in this, Novgorod and Pskov had specific rules and laws on what a Prince
          (kniaz) was allowed to do. They would have frowned on an army taking over the
          city. Besides, they had to fit into the prince's fortress.

          *****************************
          Predslava Vydrina
          Per fess embattled azure and gules, two otters passant or.
          <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html">Russian History Trivia Page</A>
          (http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
          Greetings Nadezhda! AFAIR, any size smaller than several hundred. It s not an army, it s a kind of a personal guard/body of rangers/sheriffs/convoy troops,
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 3, 2002
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            Greetings Nadezhda!

            AFAIR, any size smaller than several hundred. It's not an army, it's a kind of
            a personal guard/body of rangers/sheriffs/convoy troops, etc. For greater size
            actions, Opolcheniye, or (earlier term) Rat' was involved. Mainly, it was like
            National Guard in the US or the main body of the Swiss army - several times a
            year they revived their battle skills and all the othe rtime they were peaceful
            workers. Druzhina was divided into Older and Younger, the Older Druzhina was a
            bode of Boyars and really was a council and a body of closest guards for the
            Prince. That makes its size of no more than 1-2 dozen. The Younger Druzhina
            performed all the moliary/law enforcement duties it was designed to, and its
            size depended on the riches of the Prince mainly. Though, no Prince could
            afford a Drouzhina of a thousand or more (he literally bought their loyalty) -
            there's an economic law that a society can feed an army of no more than about 1
            percent of the population.

            The size of Druzhina is somehow pictured by phrases from the chronicles that
            mention some conflict that has to be solved, so to say, "on the march", and the
            prince hurries to the spot "s druzhinoy maloy" (with his small Druzhina).

            Bye,
            Posadnik.
          • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
            Greetings! In my previous posting, It was like the US National Guard... meant Rat , not Druzhina. Druzhina was always battle-ready, though involved in
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 3, 2002
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              Greetings!

              In my previous posting,

              "It was like the US National Guard..." meant Rat', not Druzhina. Druzhina was
              always battle-ready, though involved in several duties almost daily. Though, we
              can't see the question well, if we treat Novgorod/Pskov Druzhina as the best
              example. There Princes were hired by the city officials, and the size of the
              Druzhina was also established as not allowing the Prince to change the rules of
              the game. Kievan or Chernigov Druzhinas could be greater, also because NOT all
              the Druzhina was supposed to be garrisoned in the main citadel. Some of it was
              always busy at faraway outposts.

              Though, with the South there's another pain-in-the-neck. As 13-14 century
              Novgorod had its Ushkuiniks, that raided the lands byond the eastern frontier
              of the Russian states, in Kievan region the same was performed by the 11-13
              (approx.) Brodniks. Those were half peaceful Steppe dwellers of the Russian
              origin, dwelling between Don and Dnieper, half fortune seekers. There is some
              evidence that Brodniks (no connection with the Russian "Brod" ("ford"), BTW)
              were the buffer force between the nomads and the Rus, serving this or that
              side, and even regular Druzhinas from time to time set out "to feed themselves"
              into the Steppes, becoming Brodniks for a while, then returning to their
              Prince. The Brodniks existed at least until 14 century, when the term (most
              likely it meant "open space dweller, never fixed to a piece of land") was
              replaced by the term "cossack" (Ilya Muromets, who served his country at a
              Steppe outpost, was commonly called "old cossack" in the Bylinas. The
              Historic/Philologic fact the Muromets Bylina cycle was codified and put
              together no earlier than 14 century). So, the Druzhina could be split apart and
              one part became Brodniks, to raid the Steppes for glory/ransom. Some Brodniks
              could join the Druzhina. So I'd count all the Druzhinniks in the capital city
              and multiply the number by at least 0.75.

              bye,
              Posadnik.
            • Scott Wallrich
              I ve seen this term (boyers) before but i have no clue what it means. Anybody got a definition for me? Aleksandr ... the Older Druzhina was a bode of
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 4, 2002
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                I've seen this term (boyers) before but i have no clue
                what it means.

                Anybody got a definition for me?

                Aleksandr

                --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
                wrote:
                >
                <snip>
                the Older Druzhina was a bode of Boyars
                <snip>

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              • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                Greetings Alexander! First I thought Boyar(in) is related Boy (battle, fight) and yary (keen, ferocious, active). But later I came across that in Romania
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 4, 2002
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                  Greetings Alexander!

                  First I thought "Boyar(in)" is related "Boy" (battle, fight) and "yary" (keen,
                  ferocious, active). But later I came across that in Romania & Bulgaria that
                  word contained an L, "Bolyar(in)". So, now I don't know anything for sure... :-(

                  Maybe it really comes from not "Boy" but "Bol'(e)" - "big, great" (and
                  comparative form), meaning "the higher, the greater one". Similarly, if
                  Afroamericans had a military body, they could invent a relative title, "A
                  Bigger Brother". :-)

                  bye,
                  Alex
                • Shadow42
                  ... I hear that Boyar is comes from the Turkic/Khazar language and was used as a term for Nobility. Laura/Leya
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 5, 2002
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                    Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik wrote:

                    >Greetings Alexander!
                    >
                    >First I thought "Boyar(in)" is related "Boy" (battle, fight) and "yary" (keen,
                    >ferocious, active). But later I came across that in Romania & Bulgaria that
                    >word contained an L, "Bolyar(in)". So, now I don't know anything for sure... :-(
                    >
                    >Maybe it really comes from not "Boy" but "Bol'(e)" - "big, great" (and
                    >comparative form), meaning "the higher, the greater one". Similarly, if
                    >Afroamericans had a military body, they could invent a relative title, "A
                    >Bigger Brother". :-)
                    >
                    >bye,
                    >Alex
                    >
                    I hear that Boyar is comes from the Turkic/Khazar language and was used
                    as a term for Nobility.

                    Laura/Leya
                  • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                    Greetings Laura! ... Maybe, though can t say for sure. When my favourite academic bookstore opens again or I have time to travel to another part of Moscow,
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 6, 2002
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                      Greetings Laura!
                      > I hear that Boyar is comes from the Turkic/Khazar language and was used
                      > as a term for Nobility.

                      Maybe, though can't say for sure. When my favourite academic bookstore
                      opens again or I have time to travel to another part of Moscow, I'll simply
                      consult with the dictionary of Old Russian. In my Joint Dictionary of Turcic
                      languages there's no such term. It doesn't correspond with Turcic "Bahadur" or
                      Mongol "Oglan", as well. Suleimenov also doesn't mention it in his Az i Ya,
                      speaking of the oldest Turcic borrowings into Russian.

                      bye,
                      Alex.
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