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Re: Czech/Moravian/Slovak names--??

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  • Alastair Millar
    M Lady Isabelle wrote... ... Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots around, including some rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the
    Message 1 of 9 , May 5, 2002
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      M'Lady Isabelle wrote...

      >I've dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a
      >thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech
      >royal family).

      Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots around, including some
      rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the 11th century. The only
      problem I can see would be documenting them in a manner acceptable to the
      SCA. I'm still trying to do something to the Premyslid "king list" so that
      you can put it on the Czech Knowledge Pages - should be with you shortly.
      Czech gets by on a fairly small number of given names, even today - just
      last year a woman in west Bohemia was forbidden ro register a native
      American name for her newborn child (!!!).

      (Incidentally, there are two SS Agnes common in Bohemia, St Agnes of
      Bohemia (sv. Anezka Ceska) being the most popular, but St Agnes of Rome
      (sv. Anezka Rimska) also with churches to her name.)

      >I have a list of medieval Czech saints in a list of Czech church
      dedications,

      If that's the list on one of my sites, be warned that not ALL of those are
      SCA-period by any means, and not all of them are Czech. An example of the
      former: St Clement Maria Hofabuer (sv. Klement Hofbauer) and of the latter
      St Cunegundes/Kundeguna (sv. Kunhuty). (If that's a different list, I'd
      love to have a URL for it please!!!! :-))

      >but the problem with using this list as a name source is those darn
      noun/name inflections,
      >which drive me nuts.

      The work in Czech, like all Slavic languages, is based on noun cases and
      not on verb tenses. Therefore, any noun can have up to 7 seven
      declensions... "Church of St Agnes" is thus "Kostel sv. Anezky". I won't
      even mention the problem of the four genders... ;-)

      The real fun begins with saints known by two different names in Czech: St
      Ursula is Sv Vorsila in Prague (Konvent sv. Vorisly), but Sv Ursula in the
      more Germanified west (Kostel sv. Ursuly in Cheb/Eger).

      >It's also not clear to me when family names came in.
      *grin*

      >It's too bad none of our HTML scripts will support diacriticals, etc, etc.

      HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are looking at them with the
      correct code page set in your PC and/or browser (e.g. Windows Central
      European character set, the Latin II set etc.). It's a display problem, not
      an HTML problem. A useful cheat is to do titles (including their hooks and
      accents) as graphics, which are then parsed as pictures and can be read by
      anyone.

      Cheers

      Alastair

      ---------------------------
      Alastair Millar, BSc(Hons)
      Consultancy and translation for the heritage industry
      URL: http://www.skriptorium.info (od/from 06/2002)
      P.O.Box 685, CZ 111 21 Prague 1, Czech Republic
    • Patricia Hefner
      ... There s the rub--documentation. I ve noticed that even modern Slavic nationalites don t really use that many names--mostly either saints names or
      Message 2 of 9 , May 5, 2002
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        --- Alastair Millar <alastair@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots
        > around, including some
        > rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the
        > 11th century. The only
        > problem I can see would be documenting them in a
        > manner acceptable to the
        > SCA. I'm still trying to do something to the
        > Premyslid "king list" so that
        > you can put it on the Czech Knowledge Pages -
        > should be with you shortly.
        > Czech gets by on a fairly small number of given
        > names, even today - just
        > last year a woman in west Bohemia was forbidden ro
        > register a native
        > American name for her newborn child (!!!).
        >

        There's the rub--documentation. I've noticed that even
        modern Slavic nationalites don't really use that many
        names--mostly either saints' names or traditional
        Slavic names. That's weird about the woman who got in
        trouble over her baby's name. Anyway there are people
        around here like Vespirus who outclass me big time in
        the name department.


        > The real fun begins with saints known by two
        > different names in Czech: St
        > Ursula is Sv Vorsila in Prague (Konvent sv.
        > Vorisly), but Sv Ursula in the
        > more Germanified west (Kostel sv. Ursuly in
        > Cheb/Eger).


        Oh, my goodness, that is fun. :-) I like the name
        Ursula; I'll bet trying to document the darn thing in
        Czech would be like talking to a brick wall.
        >
        > >It's also not clear to me when family names came
        > in.
        > *grin*

        A linguistic nightmare??? :-) Or something I'm pretty
        familiar with--a historical nightmare? I know "Hus"
        really isn't a family name--it's an abbreviation of
        his home town in southern Bohemia. I have never seen
        any sort of family name used for his side-kick,
        Jerome--we usually call him "Jerome of Prague".
        >
        > >It's too bad none of our HTML scripts will support
        > diacriticals, etc, etc.
        >
        > HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are
        > looking at them with the
        > correct code page set in your PC and/or browser
        > (e.g. Windows Central
        > European character set, the Latin II set etc.). It's
        > a display problem, not
        > an HTML problem. A useful cheat is to do titles
        > (including their hooks and
        > accents) as graphics, which are then parsed as
        > pictures and can be read by
        > anyone.
        >

        > Cheers
        >
        > Alastair
        >
        >
        Phooey, we're using the wrong browsers. :-) Oh, well.

        Isabelle

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      • Daniel Badura
        Greetings to all of you, beeing a long-time lurker to SIG I m awfully sorry to post for the first time when a thread gets rather technical and off-topic. I
        Message 3 of 9 , May 7, 2002
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          Greetings to all of you,

          beeing a long-time lurker to SIG I'm awfully sorry to post for the first time when a
          thread gets rather technical and off-topic. I apologize to all who might not be
          interested (possibly most list members).

          But as the coding of diacritics might be interesting to some of you I
          decided to post this to the list anyway.


          Alastair Millar wrote ...
          > HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are looking at
          > them with the correct code page set in your PC and/or
          > browser (e.g. Windows Central European character set,
          > the Latin II set etc.).


          Let me add this is only true for some versions of some browsers.
          To ensure "cross-browser compatibility" of the diacritics you have to
          use decimal unicodes. After spending some long nights on the browsers' feature to
          render unicodes, here is what I found for MSIE, NC and OPERA:



          1) Note: only tested on Windows-systems. I'm not sure for Mac and Linux. BTW,
          specify a basefont containing czech characters (Arial, Courier, Times New Roman).

          2) you may want to add the following line to the HEAD-sections of
          your page for Central European character sets (in one line). This will not have any
          effect on your English text:
          <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859- 2">

          3) the carkas (accents) will render anyway, just enter them as usual

          4) for the haceks (carons) and the krouzek (ring) use the following
          unicodes. Just insert them where you'd normally type the characters.
          The pattern for unicode is: &#number;
          Note: the semicolon is an essential part of the unicode!
          The number in brakets is for those who see the czech character instead of the
          unicode (because they use a web interface for receiving mail).

          a) capital C with hacek: Č (268)
          c with hacek: č (269)

          b) capital D with hacek: Ď (270)
          d with hacek: ď (271)

          c) e with hacek: ě (283)
          (there's no capital)

          d) capital N with hacek: Ň (327)
          n with hacek: ň (328)

          e) capital R with hacek: Ř (344)
          r with hacek: ř (345)

          f) capital S with hacek: Š (352)
          s with hacek: š (353)

          g) capital T with hacek: Ť (356)
          t with hacek: ť (357)

          h) u krouzkovane (with ring): ů (367)
          (again no capital)

          i) capital Z with hacek: Ž (381)
          z with hacek: ž (382)


          For more information on unicodes visit www.unicode.org (if my memory serves me
          well).


          HTH, Daniel
          (switching to lurking-mode again)


          PS: I've written a macro for Word 97 making it easy to insert the
          proper unicodes when preparing czech text for insertion to html-
          editors and a module for Access 97 which enables you to enter czech
          diacritics easily without messing around with your standart keyboard
          layout.

          If need should be I'd upload them to the list's file section.
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