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Re: [sig] Re: Czech/Moravian/Slovak names--??

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  • Patricia Hefner
    I ve dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech royal family). I have a list of medieval Czech saints in a list
    Message 1 of 9 , May 3, 2002
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      I've dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a
      thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech
      royal family). I have a list of medieval Czech saints
      in a list of Czech church dedications, but the problem
      with using this list as a name source is those darn
      noun/name inflections, which drive me nuts. (I'm
      mildly autistic, and we think in pictures, not words).
      Thus Anezka, the saint, is "sv. Anezky". It's also not
      clear to me when family names came in. They gave Jan
      Hus his from an abbreviated version of his home town.
      Zizka is apparently a bona fide family name. It's too
      bad none of our HTML scripts will support
      diacriticals, etc, etc. Oh, well.....

      Isabelle



      --- vespirus@... wrote:
      >
      > > >The SCA heraldry pages have a Czech name page in
      > them...
      > >
      > > Alastair Millar: *points at Walraven as the SCA
      > Czech names bod*
      > > (Personally I'm not going to go NEAR this
      > question, not being a member of
      > > the SCA and all...)
      >
      > I'm flattered, but I don't really feel I could say
      > much at all on Czech or
      > Slovak names.
      >
      <snip>

      > The best I can suggest is to look in the SIG
      > bibliography and the Saint
      > Gabriel bibliography for lists of the resources that
      > I and others have
      > found to date.
      >
      > --Walraven
      >
      >
      >


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    • Kate Rayburn
      I have some feminie names as well that I gleaned from various books while I wa searching for my name (none of which I can verify as a period spelling, but for
      Message 2 of 9 , May 4, 2002
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        I have some feminie names as well that I gleaned from various books
        while I wa searching for my name (none of which I can verify as a period
        spelling, but for CoA purposes they are acceptable - or so I was told).
        They're up on my webpage for general discussion. The address is
        <http://www.elfsea.net/anezka/names.html>
        http://www.elfsea.net/anezka/names.html . Also Isabelle, I've got the
        old version of the knowledge page up too if you'd like to take a look I
        can send you the specific address. And you can show the diatricals, you
        just need to know the proper encoding for a webpage. Email me privately
        and I'll get you the specifics.

        Anezka

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Patricia Hefner [mailto:verte76@...]
        Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 11:38 PM
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [sig] Re: Czech/Moravian/Slovak names--??


        I've dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a
        thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech
        royal family). I have a list of medieval Czech saints
        in a list of Czech church dedications, but the problem
        with using this list as a name source is those darn
        noun/name inflections, which drive me nuts. (I'm
        mildly autistic, and we think in pictures, not words).
        Thus Anezka, the saint, is "sv. Anezky". It's also not
        clear to me when family names came in. They gave Jan
        Hus his from an abbreviated version of his home town.
        Zizka is apparently a bona fide family name. It's too
        bad none of our HTML scripts will support
        diacriticals, etc, etc. Oh, well.....

        Isabelle



        --- vespirus@... wrote:
        >
        > > >The SCA heraldry pages have a Czech name page in
        > them...
        > >
        > > Alastair Millar: *points at Walraven as the SCA
        > Czech names bod*
        > > (Personally I'm not going to go NEAR this
        > question, not being a member of
        > > the SCA and all...)
        >
        > I'm flattered, but I don't really feel I could say
        > much at all on Czech or
        > Slovak names.
        >
        <snip>

        > The best I can suggest is to look in the SIG
        > bibliography and the Saint
        > Gabriel bibliography for lists of the resources that
        > I and others have
        > found to date.
        >
        > --Walraven
        >
        >
        >


        =====
        Support your friendly local autistics....I'm one of them

        __________________________________________________
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      • Patricia Hefner
        Yeah, I d like to see the old stuff. Unfortunately, I m not that good at this technical stuff. I use a site host that only requires a little HTML. I flaked out
        Message 3 of 9 , May 4, 2002
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          Yeah, I'd like to see the old stuff. Unfortunately,
          I'm not that good at this technical stuff. I use a
          site host that only requires a little HTML. I flaked
          out on some others because I couldn't figure them out.
          :-) But do send me that address. Thanks!

          Isabelle

          --- Kate Rayburn <anezka@...> wrote:
          > I have some feminie names as well that I gleaned
          > from various books
          > while I wa searching for my name (none of which I
          > can verify as a period
          > spelling, but for CoA purposes they are acceptable -
          > or so I was told).
          > They're up on my webpage for general discussion.
          > The address is
          > <http://www.elfsea.net/anezka/names.html>
          > http://www.elfsea.net/anezka/names.html . Also
          > Isabelle, I've got the
          > old version of the knowledge page up too if you'd
          > like to take a look I
          > can send you the specific address. And you can show
          > the diatricals, you
          > just need to know the proper encoding for a webpage.
          > Email me privately
          > and I'll get you the specifics.
          >
          > Anezka
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
          http://health.yahoo.com
        • Alastair Millar
          M Lady Isabelle wrote... ... Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots around, including some rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the
          Message 4 of 9 , May 5, 2002
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            M'Lady Isabelle wrote...

            >I've dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a
            >thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech
            >royal family).

            Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots around, including some
            rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the 11th century. The only
            problem I can see would be documenting them in a manner acceptable to the
            SCA. I'm still trying to do something to the Premyslid "king list" so that
            you can put it on the Czech Knowledge Pages - should be with you shortly.
            Czech gets by on a fairly small number of given names, even today - just
            last year a woman in west Bohemia was forbidden ro register a native
            American name for her newborn child (!!!).

            (Incidentally, there are two SS Agnes common in Bohemia, St Agnes of
            Bohemia (sv. Anezka Ceska) being the most popular, but St Agnes of Rome
            (sv. Anezka Rimska) also with churches to her name.)

            >I have a list of medieval Czech saints in a list of Czech church
            dedications,

            If that's the list on one of my sites, be warned that not ALL of those are
            SCA-period by any means, and not all of them are Czech. An example of the
            former: St Clement Maria Hofabuer (sv. Klement Hofbauer) and of the latter
            St Cunegundes/Kundeguna (sv. Kunhuty). (If that's a different list, I'd
            love to have a URL for it please!!!! :-))

            >but the problem with using this list as a name source is those darn
            noun/name inflections,
            >which drive me nuts.

            The work in Czech, like all Slavic languages, is based on noun cases and
            not on verb tenses. Therefore, any noun can have up to 7 seven
            declensions... "Church of St Agnes" is thus "Kostel sv. Anezky". I won't
            even mention the problem of the four genders... ;-)

            The real fun begins with saints known by two different names in Czech: St
            Ursula is Sv Vorsila in Prague (Konvent sv. Vorisly), but Sv Ursula in the
            more Germanified west (Kostel sv. Ursuly in Cheb/Eger).

            >It's also not clear to me when family names came in.
            *grin*

            >It's too bad none of our HTML scripts will support diacriticals, etc, etc.

            HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are looking at them with the
            correct code page set in your PC and/or browser (e.g. Windows Central
            European character set, the Latin II set etc.). It's a display problem, not
            an HTML problem. A useful cheat is to do titles (including their hooks and
            accents) as graphics, which are then parsed as pictures and can be read by
            anyone.

            Cheers

            Alastair

            ---------------------------
            Alastair Millar, BSc(Hons)
            Consultancy and translation for the heritage industry
            URL: http://www.skriptorium.info (od/from 06/2002)
            P.O.Box 685, CZ 111 21 Prague 1, Czech Republic
          • Patricia Hefner
            ... There s the rub--documentation. I ve noticed that even modern Slavic nationalites don t really use that many names--mostly either saints names or
            Message 5 of 9 , May 5, 2002
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              --- Alastair Millar <alastair@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots
              > around, including some
              > rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the
              > 11th century. The only
              > problem I can see would be documenting them in a
              > manner acceptable to the
              > SCA. I'm still trying to do something to the
              > Premyslid "king list" so that
              > you can put it on the Czech Knowledge Pages -
              > should be with you shortly.
              > Czech gets by on a fairly small number of given
              > names, even today - just
              > last year a woman in west Bohemia was forbidden ro
              > register a native
              > American name for her newborn child (!!!).
              >

              There's the rub--documentation. I've noticed that even
              modern Slavic nationalites don't really use that many
              names--mostly either saints' names or traditional
              Slavic names. That's weird about the woman who got in
              trouble over her baby's name. Anyway there are people
              around here like Vespirus who outclass me big time in
              the name department.


              > The real fun begins with saints known by two
              > different names in Czech: St
              > Ursula is Sv Vorsila in Prague (Konvent sv.
              > Vorisly), but Sv Ursula in the
              > more Germanified west (Kostel sv. Ursuly in
              > Cheb/Eger).


              Oh, my goodness, that is fun. :-) I like the name
              Ursula; I'll bet trying to document the darn thing in
              Czech would be like talking to a brick wall.
              >
              > >It's also not clear to me when family names came
              > in.
              > *grin*

              A linguistic nightmare??? :-) Or something I'm pretty
              familiar with--a historical nightmare? I know "Hus"
              really isn't a family name--it's an abbreviation of
              his home town in southern Bohemia. I have never seen
              any sort of family name used for his side-kick,
              Jerome--we usually call him "Jerome of Prague".
              >
              > >It's too bad none of our HTML scripts will support
              > diacriticals, etc, etc.
              >
              > HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are
              > looking at them with the
              > correct code page set in your PC and/or browser
              > (e.g. Windows Central
              > European character set, the Latin II set etc.). It's
              > a display problem, not
              > an HTML problem. A useful cheat is to do titles
              > (including their hooks and
              > accents) as graphics, which are then parsed as
              > pictures and can be read by
              > anyone.
              >

              > Cheers
              >
              > Alastair
              >
              >
              Phooey, we're using the wrong browsers. :-) Oh, well.

              Isabelle

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            • Daniel Badura
              Greetings to all of you, beeing a long-time lurker to SIG I m awfully sorry to post for the first time when a thread gets rather technical and off-topic. I
              Message 6 of 9 , May 7, 2002
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                Greetings to all of you,

                beeing a long-time lurker to SIG I'm awfully sorry to post for the first time when a
                thread gets rather technical and off-topic. I apologize to all who might not be
                interested (possibly most list members).

                But as the coding of diacritics might be interesting to some of you I
                decided to post this to the list anyway.


                Alastair Millar wrote ...
                > HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are looking at
                > them with the correct code page set in your PC and/or
                > browser (e.g. Windows Central European character set,
                > the Latin II set etc.).


                Let me add this is only true for some versions of some browsers.
                To ensure "cross-browser compatibility" of the diacritics you have to
                use decimal unicodes. After spending some long nights on the browsers' feature to
                render unicodes, here is what I found for MSIE, NC and OPERA:



                1) Note: only tested on Windows-systems. I'm not sure for Mac and Linux. BTW,
                specify a basefont containing czech characters (Arial, Courier, Times New Roman).

                2) you may want to add the following line to the HEAD-sections of
                your page for Central European character sets (in one line). This will not have any
                effect on your English text:
                <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859- 2">

                3) the carkas (accents) will render anyway, just enter them as usual

                4) for the haceks (carons) and the krouzek (ring) use the following
                unicodes. Just insert them where you'd normally type the characters.
                The pattern for unicode is: &#number;
                Note: the semicolon is an essential part of the unicode!
                The number in brakets is for those who see the czech character instead of the
                unicode (because they use a web interface for receiving mail).

                a) capital C with hacek: Č (268)
                c with hacek: č (269)

                b) capital D with hacek: Ď (270)
                d with hacek: ď (271)

                c) e with hacek: ě (283)
                (there's no capital)

                d) capital N with hacek: Ň (327)
                n with hacek: ň (328)

                e) capital R with hacek: Ř (344)
                r with hacek: ř (345)

                f) capital S with hacek: Š (352)
                s with hacek: š (353)

                g) capital T with hacek: Ť (356)
                t with hacek: ť (357)

                h) u krouzkovane (with ring): ů (367)
                (again no capital)

                i) capital Z with hacek: Ž (381)
                z with hacek: ž (382)


                For more information on unicodes visit www.unicode.org (if my memory serves me
                well).


                HTH, Daniel
                (switching to lurking-mode again)


                PS: I've written a macro for Word 97 making it easy to insert the
                proper unicodes when preparing czech text for insertion to html-
                editors and a module for Access 97 which enables you to enter czech
                diacritics easily without messing around with your standart keyboard
                layout.

                If need should be I'd upload them to the list's file section.
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