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Re: [sig] Re: Czech/Moravian/Slovak names--??

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  • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
    ... I m flattered, but I don t really feel I could say much at all on Czech or Slovak names. My best resources are Hungarian and Polish, with a nice set of
    Message 1 of 9 , May 3, 2002
      > >The SCA heraldry pages have a Czech name page in them...
      >
      > Alastair Millar: *points at Walraven as the SCA Czech names bod*
      > (Personally I'm not going to go NEAR this question, not being a member of
      > the SCA and all...)

      I'm flattered, but I don't really feel I could say much at all on Czech or
      Slovak names. My best resources are Hungarian and Polish, with a nice set
      of Croat names resources that I'm currently attempting to make useable.

      The best I can suggest is to look in the SIG bibliography and the Saint
      Gabriel bibliography for lists of the resources that I and others have
      found to date.

      --Walraven
    • Patricia Hefner
      I ve dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech royal family). I have a list of medieval Czech saints in a list
      Message 2 of 9 , May 3, 2002
        I've dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a
        thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech
        royal family). I have a list of medieval Czech saints
        in a list of Czech church dedications, but the problem
        with using this list as a name source is those darn
        noun/name inflections, which drive me nuts. (I'm
        mildly autistic, and we think in pictures, not words).
        Thus Anezka, the saint, is "sv. Anezky". It's also not
        clear to me when family names came in. They gave Jan
        Hus his from an abbreviated version of his home town.
        Zizka is apparently a bona fide family name. It's too
        bad none of our HTML scripts will support
        diacriticals, etc, etc. Oh, well.....

        Isabelle



        --- vespirus@... wrote:
        >
        > > >The SCA heraldry pages have a Czech name page in
        > them...
        > >
        > > Alastair Millar: *points at Walraven as the SCA
        > Czech names bod*
        > > (Personally I'm not going to go NEAR this
        > question, not being a member of
        > > the SCA and all...)
        >
        > I'm flattered, but I don't really feel I could say
        > much at all on Czech or
        > Slovak names.
        >
        <snip>

        > The best I can suggest is to look in the SIG
        > bibliography and the Saint
        > Gabriel bibliography for lists of the resources that
        > I and others have
        > found to date.
        >
        > --Walraven
        >
        >
        >


        =====
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      • Kate Rayburn
        I have some feminie names as well that I gleaned from various books while I wa searching for my name (none of which I can verify as a period spelling, but for
        Message 3 of 9 , May 4, 2002
          I have some feminie names as well that I gleaned from various books
          while I wa searching for my name (none of which I can verify as a period
          spelling, but for CoA purposes they are acceptable - or so I was told).
          They're up on my webpage for general discussion. The address is
          <http://www.elfsea.net/anezka/names.html>
          http://www.elfsea.net/anezka/names.html . Also Isabelle, I've got the
          old version of the knowledge page up too if you'd like to take a look I
          can send you the specific address. And you can show the diatricals, you
          just need to know the proper encoding for a webpage. Email me privately
          and I'll get you the specifics.

          Anezka

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Patricia Hefner [mailto:verte76@...]
          Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 11:38 PM
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [sig] Re: Czech/Moravian/Slovak names--??


          I've dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a
          thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech
          royal family). I have a list of medieval Czech saints
          in a list of Czech church dedications, but the problem
          with using this list as a name source is those darn
          noun/name inflections, which drive me nuts. (I'm
          mildly autistic, and we think in pictures, not words).
          Thus Anezka, the saint, is "sv. Anezky". It's also not
          clear to me when family names came in. They gave Jan
          Hus his from an abbreviated version of his home town.
          Zizka is apparently a bona fide family name. It's too
          bad none of our HTML scripts will support
          diacriticals, etc, etc. Oh, well.....

          Isabelle



          --- vespirus@... wrote:
          >
          > > >The SCA heraldry pages have a Czech name page in
          > them...
          > >
          > > Alastair Millar: *points at Walraven as the SCA
          > Czech names bod*
          > > (Personally I'm not going to go NEAR this
          > question, not being a member of
          > > the SCA and all...)
          >
          > I'm flattered, but I don't really feel I could say
          > much at all on Czech or
          > Slovak names.
          >
          <snip>

          > The best I can suggest is to look in the SIG
          > bibliography and the Saint
          > Gabriel bibliography for lists of the resources that
          > I and others have
          > found to date.
          >
          > --Walraven
          >
          >
          >


          =====
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Patricia Hefner
          Yeah, I d like to see the old stuff. Unfortunately, I m not that good at this technical stuff. I use a site host that only requires a little HTML. I flaked out
          Message 4 of 9 , May 4, 2002
            Yeah, I'd like to see the old stuff. Unfortunately,
            I'm not that good at this technical stuff. I use a
            site host that only requires a little HTML. I flaked
            out on some others because I couldn't figure them out.
            :-) But do send me that address. Thanks!

            Isabelle

            --- Kate Rayburn <anezka@...> wrote:
            > I have some feminie names as well that I gleaned
            > from various books
            > while I wa searching for my name (none of which I
            > can verify as a period
            > spelling, but for CoA purposes they are acceptable -
            > or so I was told).
            > They're up on my webpage for general discussion.
            > The address is
            > <http://www.elfsea.net/anezka/names.html>
            > http://www.elfsea.net/anezka/names.html . Also
            > Isabelle, I've got the
            > old version of the knowledge page up too if you'd
            > like to take a look I
            > can send you the specific address. And you can show
            > the diatricals, you
            > just need to know the proper encoding for a webpage.
            > Email me privately
            > and I'll get you the specifics.
            >
            > Anezka
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
            http://health.yahoo.com
          • Alastair Millar
            M Lady Isabelle wrote... ... Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots around, including some rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the
            Message 5 of 9 , May 5, 2002
              M'Lady Isabelle wrote...

              >I've dug up a few (i.e, Anezka, who was a
              >thirteenth-century saint, and a member of the Czech
              >royal family).

              Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots around, including some
              rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the 11th century. The only
              problem I can see would be documenting them in a manner acceptable to the
              SCA. I'm still trying to do something to the Premyslid "king list" so that
              you can put it on the Czech Knowledge Pages - should be with you shortly.
              Czech gets by on a fairly small number of given names, even today - just
              last year a woman in west Bohemia was forbidden ro register a native
              American name for her newborn child (!!!).

              (Incidentally, there are two SS Agnes common in Bohemia, St Agnes of
              Bohemia (sv. Anezka Ceska) being the most popular, but St Agnes of Rome
              (sv. Anezka Rimska) also with churches to her name.)

              >I have a list of medieval Czech saints in a list of Czech church
              dedications,

              If that's the list on one of my sites, be warned that not ALL of those are
              SCA-period by any means, and not all of them are Czech. An example of the
              former: St Clement Maria Hofabuer (sv. Klement Hofbauer) and of the latter
              St Cunegundes/Kundeguna (sv. Kunhuty). (If that's a different list, I'd
              love to have a URL for it please!!!! :-))

              >but the problem with using this list as a name source is those darn
              noun/name inflections,
              >which drive me nuts.

              The work in Czech, like all Slavic languages, is based on noun cases and
              not on verb tenses. Therefore, any noun can have up to 7 seven
              declensions... "Church of St Agnes" is thus "Kostel sv. Anezky". I won't
              even mention the problem of the four genders... ;-)

              The real fun begins with saints known by two different names in Czech: St
              Ursula is Sv Vorsila in Prague (Konvent sv. Vorisly), but Sv Ursula in the
              more Germanified west (Kostel sv. Ursuly in Cheb/Eger).

              >It's also not clear to me when family names came in.
              *grin*

              >It's too bad none of our HTML scripts will support diacriticals, etc, etc.

              HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are looking at them with the
              correct code page set in your PC and/or browser (e.g. Windows Central
              European character set, the Latin II set etc.). It's a display problem, not
              an HTML problem. A useful cheat is to do titles (including their hooks and
              accents) as graphics, which are then parsed as pictures and can be read by
              anyone.

              Cheers

              Alastair

              ---------------------------
              Alastair Millar, BSc(Hons)
              Consultancy and translation for the heritage industry
              URL: http://www.skriptorium.info (od/from 06/2002)
              P.O.Box 685, CZ 111 21 Prague 1, Czech Republic
            • Patricia Hefner
              ... There s the rub--documentation. I ve noticed that even modern Slavic nationalites don t really use that many names--mostly either saints names or
              Message 6 of 9 , May 5, 2002
                --- Alastair Millar <alastair@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Names are not a problem in any way - there are lots
                > around, including some
                > rather odd ones used by mintmasters in Prague in the
                > 11th century. The only
                > problem I can see would be documenting them in a
                > manner acceptable to the
                > SCA. I'm still trying to do something to the
                > Premyslid "king list" so that
                > you can put it on the Czech Knowledge Pages -
                > should be with you shortly.
                > Czech gets by on a fairly small number of given
                > names, even today - just
                > last year a woman in west Bohemia was forbidden ro
                > register a native
                > American name for her newborn child (!!!).
                >

                There's the rub--documentation. I've noticed that even
                modern Slavic nationalites don't really use that many
                names--mostly either saints' names or traditional
                Slavic names. That's weird about the woman who got in
                trouble over her baby's name. Anyway there are people
                around here like Vespirus who outclass me big time in
                the name department.


                > The real fun begins with saints known by two
                > different names in Czech: St
                > Ursula is Sv Vorsila in Prague (Konvent sv.
                > Vorisly), but Sv Ursula in the
                > more Germanified west (Kostel sv. Ursuly in
                > Cheb/Eger).


                Oh, my goodness, that is fun. :-) I like the name
                Ursula; I'll bet trying to document the darn thing in
                Czech would be like talking to a brick wall.
                >
                > >It's also not clear to me when family names came
                > in.
                > *grin*

                A linguistic nightmare??? :-) Or something I'm pretty
                familiar with--a historical nightmare? I know "Hus"
                really isn't a family name--it's an abbreviation of
                his home town in southern Bohemia. I have never seen
                any sort of family name used for his side-kick,
                Jerome--we usually call him "Jerome of Prague".
                >
                > >It's too bad none of our HTML scripts will support
                > diacriticals, etc, etc.
                >
                > HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are
                > looking at them with the
                > correct code page set in your PC and/or browser
                > (e.g. Windows Central
                > European character set, the Latin II set etc.). It's
                > a display problem, not
                > an HTML problem. A useful cheat is to do titles
                > (including their hooks and
                > accents) as graphics, which are then parsed as
                > pictures and can be read by
                > anyone.
                >

                > Cheers
                >
                > Alastair
                >
                >
                Phooey, we're using the wrong browsers. :-) Oh, well.

                Isabelle

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              • Daniel Badura
                Greetings to all of you, beeing a long-time lurker to SIG I m awfully sorry to post for the first time when a thread gets rather technical and off-topic. I
                Message 7 of 9 , May 7, 2002
                  Greetings to all of you,

                  beeing a long-time lurker to SIG I'm awfully sorry to post for the first time when a
                  thread gets rather technical and off-topic. I apologize to all who might not be
                  interested (possibly most list members).

                  But as the coding of diacritics might be interesting to some of you I
                  decided to post this to the list anyway.


                  Alastair Millar wrote ...
                  > HTML scripts will support diacriticals, IF you are looking at
                  > them with the correct code page set in your PC and/or
                  > browser (e.g. Windows Central European character set,
                  > the Latin II set etc.).


                  Let me add this is only true for some versions of some browsers.
                  To ensure "cross-browser compatibility" of the diacritics you have to
                  use decimal unicodes. After spending some long nights on the browsers' feature to
                  render unicodes, here is what I found for MSIE, NC and OPERA:



                  1) Note: only tested on Windows-systems. I'm not sure for Mac and Linux. BTW,
                  specify a basefont containing czech characters (Arial, Courier, Times New Roman).

                  2) you may want to add the following line to the HEAD-sections of
                  your page for Central European character sets (in one line). This will not have any
                  effect on your English text:
                  <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859- 2">

                  3) the carkas (accents) will render anyway, just enter them as usual

                  4) for the haceks (carons) and the krouzek (ring) use the following
                  unicodes. Just insert them where you'd normally type the characters.
                  The pattern for unicode is: &#number;
                  Note: the semicolon is an essential part of the unicode!
                  The number in brakets is for those who see the czech character instead of the
                  unicode (because they use a web interface for receiving mail).

                  a) capital C with hacek: Č (268)
                  c with hacek: č (269)

                  b) capital D with hacek: Ď (270)
                  d with hacek: ď (271)

                  c) e with hacek: ě (283)
                  (there's no capital)

                  d) capital N with hacek: Ň (327)
                  n with hacek: ň (328)

                  e) capital R with hacek: Ř (344)
                  r with hacek: ř (345)

                  f) capital S with hacek: Š (352)
                  s with hacek: š (353)

                  g) capital T with hacek: Ť (356)
                  t with hacek: ť (357)

                  h) u krouzkovane (with ring): ů (367)
                  (again no capital)

                  i) capital Z with hacek: Ž (381)
                  z with hacek: ž (382)


                  For more information on unicodes visit www.unicode.org (if my memory serves me
                  well).


                  HTH, Daniel
                  (switching to lurking-mode again)


                  PS: I've written a macro for Word 97 making it easy to insert the
                  proper unicodes when preparing czech text for insertion to html-
                  editors and a module for Access 97 which enables you to enter czech
                  diacritics easily without messing around with your standart keyboard
                  layout.

                  If need should be I'd upload them to the list's file section.
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