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Re: [sig] sarafan hassles

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  • Jenn/Yana
    ... I meant to say it would look like a cotehardie. --Yana
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 2, 2002
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      >I think
      >that it would be better if the fabric started to drape from under the
      >armpit, instead of starting somewhere around the hips (which would look
      >more like a bliaut, to me).


      I meant to say "it would look like a cotehardie."

      --Yana
    • Patricia Hefner
      This is what I ended up doing. Fortunately, I had five and a half yards of this fabric--broadcloth, which I know is not period but if we don t accomodate
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 2, 2002
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        This is what I ended up doing. Fortunately, I had five
        and a half yards of this fabric--broadcloth, which I
        know is not period but if we don't accomodate these
        infernally hot Meridian summer nights we pay--so I was
        able to fold it up and cut out two pieces without
        using the folds. Then I didn't know where to put the
        gores. I made a *huge* mistake with the gores on my
        first sarafan, and that's why I ran into a fitting
        problem fast when I gained weight due to a medical
        problem. Ouch! So I took the pieces of fabric I cut
        out of the broadcloth and sewed them together at the
        top, complete with seams. I sewed about two inches at
        a time to see what the fit was like. It was fine when
        I got to the waist; some pins proved that I would have
        had problems if I'd gone any further without putting
        the gores in. I actually may have to go back and pull
        some of this stitching out; I don't know. This stuff
        is tricky because I'm losing weight (I joined a health
        club!). We have a really good alterer in Meridies. :-)
        I haven't done much sewing in the past couple of years
        because I've been learning tablet weaving, working on
        my web site, and putting together classes for the
        Royal University of Meridies, including an overview of
        Russian garb that started out as a bit of an inside
        joke. A Middle Eastern dance Laurel planned a Middle
        Eastern event with a battle with Crusaders in it. She
        wanted an "Eastern European invasion" and asked yours
        truly to be the Eastern European party. So I went in a
        navershnik (it was July and the heat was a killer) and
        we had the battle with the "Eastern European party"
        involved by teaching the ladies what Russian garb
        looked like using the pictures from 'dak's packet and
        also pictures from someone in the Atlanta group (the
        Barony of South Downs), as well as my navershnik and
        my first kokoshnik (which is still my best one. I've
        made two of them since but I still think that first
        one is the best). It was fun even though we got pretty
        wiped out due to the heat.
        Anyway, I hope I've gotten past the tricky fit deal
        with this sarafan. Whew!

        Isabelle



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      • Diane Sawyer
        ... {snip} ... I do the custom width thing, but then I usually work with 60 wide fabric. I like the psychotic pswer thing.... does that happen before or
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 3, 2002
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          --- Jenn/Yana <slavic@...> wrote:
          > Isabelle frantically wrote:
          {snip}

          > I
          > >took two pieces of the fabric and cut them as front
          > >and back, without a fold. The top is 22 inches; the
          > >second measurement, four and a half inches down, is
          > 24
          > >inches.
          >
          > Right, you had to make a seam down the front and the
          > back in order to have
          > enough fabric width to fit you. Doing fine, it is
          > what I would do (either
          > that or I would have been "wasteful" and tore the
          > fabric into the custom
          > width I needed, but I become psychotic psewer
          > sometimes).

          I do the custom width thing, but then I usually work
          with 60" wide fabric.

          I like the "psychotic pswer" thing.... does that
          happen before or after midnight, or is it a function
          of how much time you have until the event at which you
          want to wear the outfit? :-)

          {snip}
          > > I
          > can't
          > >figure out the cut on the gores. How long should I
          > >make them? The 20" diagonal doesn't end at the
          > hips,
          > >it's lower!
          >
          > In my opinion, the straight edge of the gore
          > (measurement E), should be as
          > long as from your bust measurement to the floor (B
          > to floor), not your hip
          > to the floor, as the directions say. The directions
          > state that "the point
          > of the side gores (at the hip in this pattern) can
          > be raised to accomodate
          > larger waist measurements, if necessary."
          > Definitely raise it. I think
          > that it would be better if the fabric started to
          > drape from under the
          > armpit, instead of starting somewhere around the
          > hips (which would look
          > more like a bliaut, to me). No depictions of
          > Russian dress that I have
          > seen have a cylindrical waist with the fabric
          > beginning to flare at the
          > hips (Tasha, please comment, since you have actually
          > seen your garment in
          > action).

          I prefer it with the gores lower, but you have more
          experience with the actual pictures than I. I may be
          making something that looks more like a Norse dress
          than a sarafan, and need to do more research.
          Unfortunately, my modern sensibilities are coming to
          the fore, and if I wear something bigger, I feel like
          a ship under sail. I know that's the point, but I'm
          big enough without wanting to feel bigger.

          Basically, what I did was take what I thought Dak's
          packet was trying to say and adapt the measuring
          guide, since under no circumstances, even with the
          gores at my armpits, will a 40" circumference fit
          under my arms. I think I may have misinterpreted the
          20" diagonal cut, however.

          {snip of stuff about setting gores}

          >
          > So, Tasha, are we to sew the long diagonal sides
          > together (bias) or the
          > long straight sides (long grain)? In my head, I
          > think it is the long
          > straight sides, but I wanted to make sure there
          > wasn't something going on
          > with bias-to-straight seams, or something. Could be
          > worthwhile to try it
          > both ways....

          Long diagonal sides -- look at Dak's packet. If you
          sew the gores in so the hypotenuse of the right
          triangle is against the edge or the front/back panel,
          then there will be a large triangular divot in the
          hemline. If you sew it so the long edge of the right
          triangle is against the edge of the panel, you get a
          trailing bit that can be taken off in the hemming.

          Tasha
          who will likely have to rework her article

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        • Jenn/Yana
          ... Oh, sometimes I will spend days on figuring out a pattern, ripping muslin into shreds, drafting things out on paper (many, many pieces of paper), oblivious
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 3, 2002
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            >I like the "psychotic pswer" thing.... does that
            >happen before or after midnight, or is it a function
            >of how much time you have until the event at which you
            >want to wear the outfit? :-)

            Oh, sometimes I will spend days on figuring out a pattern, ripping muslin
            into shreds, drafting things out on paper (many, many pieces of paper),
            oblivious all the while to everything else in the world (work, household
            chores, my husband...). That's one type of psychotic. The other type is
            staying up so late that my eyes become so dry that I have to be careful not
            to blink my contact lenses out of my eyes as I sew.

            >Long diagonal sides -- look at Dak's packet. If you
            >sew the gores in so the hypotenuse of the right
            >triangle is against the edge or the front/back panel,
            >then there will be a large triangular divot in the
            >hemline. If you sew it so the long edge of the right
            >triangle is against the edge of the panel, you get a
            >trailing bit that can be taken off in the hemming.

            Ah, I think I misinterpreted the instructions. So you sew the gores
            (triangles) together along the bias edge and _then_ sew them to the body
            pieces (rectangles), right? That is actually what I though you did, I just
            tend to sew the individual gore-piece to the body first, then sew the gores
            together at what will become the side-seam.

            >Tasha
            >who will likely have to rework her article

            A diagram of the finished product showing the seam lines would be helpful. ;-)

            --Yana, the bleary
          • Diane Sawyer
            ... {SNIP} ... No, you have it right. Much, much easier that way. But you do end up with the bias edge together. The only way I can think of to get around
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 4, 2002
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              --- Jenn/Yana <slavic@...> wrote:
              {SNIP}

              >
              > Ah, I think I misinterpreted the instructions. So
              > you sew the gores
              > (triangles) together along the bias edge and _then_
              > sew them to the body
              > pieces (rectangles), right? That is actually what I
              > though you did, I just
              > tend to sew the individual gore-piece to the body
              > first, then sew the gores
              > together at what will become the side-seam.

              No, you have it right. Much, much easier that way.
              But you do end up with the bias edge together. The
              only way I can think of to get around that is to cut
              the gore as one solid triangle, on the grain. Big
              fabric waster, that.

              >
              > >Tasha
              > >who will likely have to rework her article
              >
              > A diagram of the finished product showing the seam
              > lines would be helpful. ;-)
              >
              > --Yana, the bleary

              I'll see what I can do. It'll be a lot easier now
              that I have a scanner. That's one I can't fake with
              ascii art.

              Tasha

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            • Sorcha
              Subject: Re: [sig] sarafan hassles Greetings Tasha, If I may interject here, on the subject of bias and straight grain. The bias should almost always be sewn
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 5, 2002
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                Subject: Re: [sig] sarafan hassles

                Greetings Tasha,
                If I may interject here, on the subject of bias and straight grain. The bias should almost always be sewn to the straight grain of the garment. The exception is any underarm seam of gussets to take advantage of the stretch properties of the bias. A sarafan is a rectangular construction, subtly differing from those made a bit further south or to the west. An excellent article concerning the whys of this rule is available at: http://www.vertetsable.com/periodstyle.htm.
                So to the question below the answer is, No, first you sew the bias edge to the straight edge of the rectangle, then sew the side seam, being the straight edges of the triangles. For the rectangular patern I use most often the gussets (under arm) are sewn to , the gore (side) peices, then the gussets are sewn to the sleeves and then the whole side assembly is sewn to the body of the garment in a long continuous seam. The order these things get into differs with different construction plans of course, but the straight to bias rule continues throughout.
                Sewing bias to bias will give you alot of stretch and droop. A good thing for underarm seams to allow movement, a bad thing for main seams, causing them to droop badly, and never hang quite right.
                I hope this has been helpful in any small way,
                Gulenay Khazari

                PS,
                The page above is that of my Laurel's and none of my doing.
                G



                >I like the "psychotic pswer" thing.... < Me Too! >
                <snip>

                Ah, I think I misinterpreted the instructions. So you sew the gores
                (triangles) together along the bias edge and _then_ sew them to the body
                pieces (rectangles), right? That is actually what I though you did, I just
                tend to sew the individual gore-piece to the body first, then sew the gores
                together at what will become the side-seam.

                >Tasha
                >who will likely have to rework her article

                <Snip>



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Diane Sawyer
                ... {snip} Isn t that what I said? ... All the edges of a triangle are straight. Are you talking about the hypotenuse or the long edge? And what you re
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 5, 2002
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                  --- Sorcha <sorcha@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Subject: Re: [sig] sarafan hassles
                  >
                  > Greetings Tasha,
                  > If I may interject here, on the subject of bias
                  > and straight grain. The bias should almost always be
                  > sewn to the straight grain of the garment.
                  {snip}

                  Isn't that what I said?

                  > So to the question below the answer is, No, first
                  > you sew the bias edge to the straight edge of the
                  > rectangle, then sew the side seam, being the
                  > straight edges of the triangles.

                  All the edges of a triangle are straight. Are you
                  talking about the hypotenuse or the long edge? And
                  what you're saying is exactly how I told Yana to put
                  it together. Unless you're talking about sewing the
                  hypotenuse to the front/back panels, in which case I
                  cannot for the life of me figure out how you manage
                  this without getting a huge triangular divot in the
                  lower hem.

                  > For the rectangular
                  > patern I use most often the gussets (under arm) are
                  > sewn to , the gore (side) peices, then the gussets
                  > are sewn to the sleeves and then the whole side
                  > assembly is sewn to the body of the garment in a
                  > long continuous seam. The order these things get
                  > into differs with different construction plans of
                  > course, but the straight to bias rule continues
                  > throughout.

                  That's a rubakha you're talking about, and that's how
                  I sew it together.

                  > Sewing bias to bias will give you alot of stretch
                  > and droop. A good thing for underarm seams to allow
                  > movement, a bad thing for main seams, causing them
                  > to droop badly, and never hang quite right.
                  > I hope this has been helpful in any small way,
                  > Gulenay Khazari

                  I've never had any trouble.

                  Tasha

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                • Sorcha
                  ... {snip} ... No, Not really, we have differing views about bias and straight grain, please see below. ... Yes, thats exactly what I mean, the long edges sewn
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 6, 2002
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                    --- Sorcha <sorcha@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings Tasha,
                    > If I may interject here, on the subject of bias
                    > and straight grain. The bias should almost always be
                    > sewn to the straight grain of the garment.
                    {snip}

                    > Isn't that what I said?


                    No, Not really, we have differing views about bias and straight grain, please see below.

                    > So to the question below the answer is, No, first
                    > you sew the bias edge to the straight edge of the
                    > rectangle, then sew the side seam, being the
                    > straight edges of the triangles.

                    > All the edges of a triangle are straight. Are you
                    > talking about the hypotenuse or the long edge? And
                    > what you're saying is exactly how I told Yana to put
                    > it together. Unless you're talking about sewing the
                    > hypotenuse to the front/back panels, in which case I
                    > cannot for the life of me figure out how you manage
                    > this without getting a huge triangular divot in the
                    > lower hem.

                    Yes, thats exactly what I mean, the long edges sewn to the body of the garment. The bias edge will most likely be the long edge, forgive me but it's been a very long time since geometry for me and I don't know if that's the hypotenuse. The bias means the cut has gone at an angle across the grain of the fabric instead of with the warp or weft. The fabric will pull, or stretch across bias, and has very very little stretch with the grain. The "Divot" you worry about is easily dealt with, the hem, if you lay the garment flat will be angled up to from the body to the side seams. I then fold the garment in half setting all the seams together, and cut it in a semi circle. I use the measuring tape placed at the center neck edge, and mark the fabric first. ( think pin and string method of marking a vcircle) Cutting at this line will give you a very nice even hem all around and doesn't waste much fabric at all.

                    > For the rectangular
                    > patern I use most often the gussets (under arm) are
                    > sewn to , the gore (side) peices, then the gussets
                    > are sewn to the sleeves and then the whole side
                    > assembly is sewn to the body of the garment in a
                    > long continuous seam. The order these things get
                    > into differs with different construction plans of
                    > course, but the straight to bias rule continues
                    > throughout.

                    > That's a rubakha you're talking about, and that's how
                    > I sew it together.

                    Thankyou, I know it's a different pattern, I have a Khazar persona, not Russian, thats why I haven't been contributing to this thread earlier. However, regardless of the culture or pattern concerned, the principles of working with woven fabrics don't change.

                    > Sewing bias to bias will give you alot of stretch
                    > and droop. A good thing for underarm seams to allow
                    > movement, a bad thing for main seams, causing them
                    > to droop badly, and never hang quite right.
                    > I hope this has been helpful in any small way,
                    > Gulenay Khazari

                    > I've never had any trouble.
                    >
                    > Tasha

                    __Good for you! I've had very a different experiences. It is not my intention to disrespect you, your experience or your knowledge. It is only my intention to be helpful to someone new to sewing. I have been sewing for about 30 years before and in the society. I most certainly haven't seen everything yet, but one thing I haven't seen is a bias seam that didn't stretch. If we're at an event together, please find me, I'd be very interested in how you did it!

                    Respectfully,
                    Gulenay

                    Barony of Stromguard
                    Kingdom of AnTir
                  • Diane Sawyer
                    ... {snip} ... The hypotenuse is the edge of a right triangle that s opposite the right angle. I guess that s the long edge. I always called the sides, the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 7, 2002
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                      --- Sorcha <sorcha@...> wrote:
                      >
                      {snip}
                      >
                      > > All the edges of a triangle are straight. Are
                      > you
                      > > talking about the hypotenuse or the long edge?
                      > And
                      > > what you're saying is exactly how I told Yana to
                      > put
                      > > it together. Unless you're talking about sewing
                      > the
                      > > hypotenuse to the front/back panels, in which
                      > case I
                      > > cannot for the life of me figure out how you
                      > manage
                      > > this without getting a huge triangular divot in
                      > the
                      > > lower hem.
                      >
                      > Yes, thats exactly what I mean, the long edges
                      > sewn to the body of the garment. The bias edge will
                      > most likely be the long edge, forgive me but it's
                      > been a very long time since geometry for me and I
                      > don't know if that's the hypotenuse.

                      The hypotenuse is the edge of a right triangle that's
                      opposite the right angle. I guess that's the long
                      edge. I always called the sides, the long edge, the
                      short edge, and the hypotenuse so as to keep all three
                      straight (no pun intended).

                      The bias means
                      > the cut has gone at an angle across the grain of the
                      > fabric instead of with the warp or weft. The fabric
                      > will pull, or stretch across bias, and has very very
                      > little stretch with the grain. The "Divot" you worry
                      > about is easily dealt with, the hem, if you lay the
                      > garment flat will be angled up to from the body to
                      > the side seams. I then fold the garment in half
                      > setting all the seams together, and cut it in a semi
                      > circle. I use the measuring tape placed at the
                      > center neck edge, and mark the fabric first. ( think
                      > pin and string method of marking a vcircle) Cutting
                      > at this line will give you a very nice even hem all
                      > around and doesn't waste much fabric at all.
                      >

                      Maybe I'll give this a shot, but for me, it's a pain
                      to figure out the lengths this way. The few times I
                      tried this method, I ended up with a divot that
                      reached my knee, so no amount of hem adjustment would
                      fix it. The only thing that worked was taking out the
                      gores and turning them around, the way I described.

                      {snip}
                      >
                      > __Good for you! I've had very a different
                      > experiences. It is not my intention to disrespect
                      > you, your experience or your knowledge. It is only
                      > my intention to be helpful to someone new to sewing.
                      > I have been sewing for about 30 years before and in
                      > the society. I most certainly haven't seen
                      > everything yet, but one thing I haven't seen is a
                      > bias seam that didn't stretch. If we're at an event
                      > together, please find me, I'd be very interested in
                      > how you did it!
                      >
                      > Respectfully,
                      > Gulenay
                      >
                      > Barony of Stromguard
                      > Kingdom of AnTir

                      I wish; last time I was in An Tir, the Army had me
                      working nights and there was no chance to even get to
                      a stitch n bitch, never mind an event.

                      I'm sorry I was snippy; job stress and rampant
                      insomnia have made me touchy. That, and the fact that
                      the stuff I wrote to try to help people seems to have
                      screwed them up more than helped. That bugs me more
                      than you can know.

                      Sorry again,
                      Tasha

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                    • Patricia Hefner
                      I haven t sewn my gores in yet (I know you can say stress :-)--ah, welcome to the club) but when I do, I m going to try the waist measurement. I almost have
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 7, 2002
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                        I haven't sewn my gores in yet (I know you can say
                        "stress" :-)--ah, welcome to the club) but when I do,
                        I'm going to try the waist measurement. I almost have
                        to because I already cut the gores (straight) and I
                        only have so much material left. After this I will
                        (tentatively, it depends on whether or not I have the
                        time) do a "mock-up" deal with unbleached muslin and
                        then a "final" product with nicer material (this
                        thing's broadcloth, folks. Would I do this with silk
                        or whatever? No! I'm only a so-so costumer anyway)
                        This thing is basically experimental for me, and it
                        will definitely be an improvement on my first sarafan,
                        which was absolutely awful!

                        Isabelle




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                      • Marilee Humason
                        My first Sarafan was the one from the Folklore pattern, you know, the one that is gatherered onto a band, and sometimes smocked? No one said anything of
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 8, 2002
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                          My first Sarafan was the one from the Folklore
                          pattern, you know, the one that is gatherered onto a
                          band, and sometimes smocked? No one said anything of
                          course, this was so long ago, I knew more than anyone
                          else, (scary!) I like to think we all improve, save
                          your first one, it is so satisfying to see how far
                          you have come!!
                          Hang in there!
                          Baroness Anastasia
                          --- Patricia Hefner <verte76@...> wrote:
                          > > > This thing is basically experimental for me, and
                          it
                          > will definitely be an improvement on my first
                          > sarafan,
                          > which was absolutely awful!
                          >
                          > Isabelle
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
                          > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                          >


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                        • Sorcha
                          ... {snip} ... The hypotenuse is the edge of a right triangle that s opposite the right angle. I guess that s the long edge. I always called the sides, the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 8, 2002
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                            > Dear Tasha,
                            {snip}
                            >
                            The hypotenuse is the edge of a right triangle that's
                            opposite the right angle. I guess that's the long
                            edge. I always called the sides, the long edge, the
                            short edge, and the hypotenuse so as to keep all three
                            straight (no pun intended).

                            Thanks, I'm glad to know what the hypotenuese is helps with explanations etc.

                            The "Divot" you worry
                            > about is easily dealt with, the hem, if you lay the
                            > garment flat will be angled up to from the body to
                            > the side seams. I then fold the garment in half
                            > setting all the seams together, and cut it in a semi
                            > circle. I use the measuring tape placed at the
                            > center neck edge, and mark the fabric first. ( think
                            > pin and string method of marking a circle) Cutting
                            > at this line will give you a very nice even hem all
                            > around and doesn't waste much fabric at all.
                            >

                            Maybe I'll give this a shot, but for me, it's a pain
                            to figure out the lengths this way. The few times I
                            tried this method, I ended up with a divot that
                            reached my knee, so no amount of hem adjustment would
                            fix it. The only thing that worked was taking out the
                            gores and turning them around, the way I described.
                            Give it a try, once with cheap woven fabric and see for yourself. I highly recomend the method described in the "Turkeman Coat Pattern" on Laurellen's web site. The same pattern works for everything from shirts, through tunics to coats. It's a layout method that really uses almost all your fabric, with very little in the way of scraps. click on :http://www.vertetsable.com/periodstyle.htm this is the demo my Laurel developed based in large part on Max Tilke's drawings. The means by which the shape/weave of the fabric is used to fit to he body is really amazing. It takes a couple tries but it's a good basic rectangular pattern. The hem measurements just get there with practice, sometimes it comes out perfectly and sometimes I just amaze myself with new and inventive ways to screw it up. One thing that will minimize the "divot" problem is to cut the gores at a more oblique angle. The hem will slant up some when laid flat, but will hang evenly when worn.


                            {snip}
                            > Respectfully,
                            > Gulenay
                            >
                            > Barony of Stromguard
                            > Kingdom of AnTir

                            I wish; last time I was in An Tir, the Army had me
                            working nights and there was no chance to even get to
                            a stitch n bitch, never mind an event.

                            I'm sorry I was snippy; job stress and rampant
                            insomnia have made me touchy. That, and the fact that
                            the stuff I wrote to try to help people seems to have
                            screwed them up more than helped. That bugs me more
                            than you can know.

                            Sorry again,
                            Tasha

                            No Problemo, I understand job stress, I'm a nurse and we just came through a 55 day strike. I didn't mean to tread on sore toes either. It's hard for me to try and explain sewing things in writing at all. I'm getting a bit better at it with practice, but it's still easier for me to pick up something and show the student. Hope you can come visit us in AnTir again soon, BTW our May Crown tourney is very close to a major airport, in Vancouver Washington (Stromguard) May 17th-19th, just in case you have a few frequent flyer miles saved up. :-)
                            Warm Regards,
                            Gulenay
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