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RE: [sig] Fencing Tarze (Buckler)

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  • John-Joseph Bober
    ... Let me see if I can remember from the museum... I believe we re talking wood with a metal rim and a small central boss shaped like a cone with the top
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 7, 2002
      >Tarze, such as design, coats-of-arms, material, etc.
      Let me see if I can remember from the museum... I believe we're
      talking wood with a metal rim and a small central boss shaped
      like a cone with the top chopped off - as opposed to the round
      ones you see used by the Norse.
      Something the size of the classic "24" round shield" should work
      well.
      Leave any sort of personal "arms" or "device" off until you have
      them passed. You can probably use some form of local (shire/barony/kingdom)
      device or badge in the mean time - or just go for a flat color.

      Jan
    • patjohnw
      Dziekuje, Art -- Yes, the singular for Shield is TARCZA, the plural TARCZE I found a great website in Polish on medieval weaponry. The page on Tarcze
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 7, 2002
        Dziekuje, Art --

        Yes, the singular for "Shield" is TARCZA, the plural TARCZE
        I found a great website in Polish on medieval weaponry. The page on
        Tarcze (Shields) is http://www.man.poznan.pl/~ritter/Html/shields.html

        Now all I have to do is translate it :})

        Janusz

        --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <artplazewski@p...> wrote:
        > Tarcza (pl) = shield (eng) as far as I know ...the round shields
        were
        > Tartar type shields
        > Art.
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: patjohnw [mailto:PatJohnW@P...]
        > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:16 AM
        > To: sig@y...
        > Subject: [sig] Fencing Tarze (Buckler)
        >
        > Hello and Dzien Dobry --
        >
        > I am a new SCA member (Midrealm, Barony of Roaring Wastes, Canton of
        > Fasach Mor) and a recent member of this Yahoo Group. I portray a
        > Pole from the 15th-16th C (am already involved a 17th C Polish
        > reenacting activities, and wanted to go back a bit further into
        > Polish culture/military history). As a Scadian, my interests lie in
        > Rapier fencing and in Thrown Weapons (axe & knife). The Poles used
        > the TARZE shield (round shield, like a buckler), and I want to use
        > this as a shield for fencing. Does anyone know details on the
        Polish
        > Tarze, such as design, coats-of-arms, material, etc. [besides being
        > round, of course :}) ] Otherwise, I'll just go with the bucklers
        > that are commercially available from SCA fencing suppliers.
        >
        > Am glad to hook up with you folks -- I guess this is the closest
        > thing to a Slavic-based clan in the SCA.
        >
        > Janusz Gryf Bykowski
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Alexey Kiyaikin
        Greetings to the fellow-archive-digger! ... BTW, if I m not mistaken, the very word is of Magyar origin, as Szablya or Pallasche. If yes, there must be some
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 7, 2002
          Greetings to the fellow-archive-digger!

          > Yes, the singular for "Shield" is TARCZA, the plural TARCZE
          > I found a great website in Polish on medieval weaponry. 
          BTW, if I'm not mistaken, the very word is of Magyar origin, as
          Szablya or Pallasche. If yes, there must be some sources in Magyar
          net...
          Alex.
        • Diane Sawyer
          ... {snip} ... I m sure that Jan did not mean to imply that you cannot display heraldry unless it is passed by the SCA College of Arms. In fact, you may, and
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 7, 2002
            --- John-Joseph Bober <jjbober4@...> wrote:
            {snip}
            > Leave any sort of personal "arms" or "device" off
            > until you have
            > them passed. You can probably use some form of
            > local (shire/barony/kingdom)
            > device or badge in the mean time - or just go for a
            > flat color.
            >
            > Jan

            I'm sure that Jan did not mean to imply that you
            cannot display heraldry unless it is passed by the SCA
            College of Arms. In fact, you may, and you are
            encouraged to -- at least, I'm fairly sure that most
            of the heralds on the SCA Heralds would do so. I know
            I would.

            Polish heraldry is a weirdness in heraldry for several
            reasons. As I understand it, Polish heraldry employed
            a more pictorial style than was usually employed in
            Western Europe. As well, it frequently broke the rule
            of tincture. You may find that an appropriately
            period motif is unpassable by the College of Heralds
            by their rules -- please, do NOT take this personally.
            The heralds are not arbitrarily trying to make your
            life miserable. That being said, if you find yourself
            in such a situation, and you can find several period
            instances where your motif or color choices are
            displayed, you many be able to get a "documented
            exception" to the rules and get your heraldry passed.

            Tasha

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          • Jeff Smith
            All: I m coming into this late, but my advice (as a herald) is that devices/arms should not be *made permanent* into anything until they are approved by the
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 7, 2002
              All:
              I'm coming into this late, but my advice (as a herald)
              is that devices/arms should not be *made permanent*
              into anything until they are approved by the College
              of Arms (i.e., Laurel). That is, don't carve it in
              leather or engrave it, etc. If your plan is to paint
              it on a shield, feel free, since (if it has to be
              changed) it can be painted over.
              There are some good sources of info on Polish
              heraldry. I don't recall one that broke the rules of
              tincture. Typically though, Polish-style heraldry is
              based on symbols which may or may not be describable
              using Franco-English heraldic terms (imagine, for
              example, a 4 with a few extra lines). If it is
              describable, it can be used. If not, it can't.
              If you'd like some examples on line, I'll have to look
              for them. Contact me off line if you're interested.
              Barcsi Janos

              --- Diane Sawyer <tasha_medvedeva@...> wrote:

              --- John-Joseph Bober <jjbober4@...>
              wrote:<BR>
              {snip}<BR>
              > Leave any sort of personal "arms" or
              "device" off<BR>
              > until you have<BR>
              > them passed.  You can probably use some form
              of<BR>
              > local (shire/barony/kingdom)<BR>
              > device or badge in the mean time - or just go for
              a<BR>
              > flat color.<BR>
              > <BR>
              > Jan<BR>
              <BR>
              I'm sure that Jan did not mean to imply that you<BR>
              cannot display heraldry unless it is passed by the
              SCA<BR>
              College of Arms.  In fact, you may, and you
              are<BR>
              encouraged to -- at least, I'm fairly sure that
              most<BR>
              of the heralds on the SCA Heralds would do so.  I
              know<BR>
              I would.<BR>
              <BR>
              Polish heraldry is a weirdness in heraldry for
              several<BR>
              reasons.  As I understand it, Polish heraldry
              employed<BR>
              a more pictorial style than was usually employed
              in<BR>
              Western Europe.  As well, it frequently broke the
              rule<BR>
              of tincture.  You may find that an
              appropriately<BR>
              period motif is unpassable by the College of
              Heralds<BR>
              by their rules -- please, do NOT take this
              personally.<BR>
              The heralds are not arbitrarily trying to make
              your<BR>
              life miserable.  That being said, if you find
              yourself<BR>
              in such a situation, and you can find several
              period<BR>
              instances where your motif or color choices are<BR>
              displayed, you many be able to get a
              "documented<BR>
              exception" to the rules and get your heraldry
              passed.<BR>
              <BR>
              Tasha<BR>

              =====
              JEFFREY C. SMITH
              Heidelberg, Germany

              "There goes one more thing that I said I would never do" -Kelly Bundy

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
              http://greetings.yahoo.com
            • Alastair Millar
              Art wrote... ... The word targe in English is probably a reasonable approximation... ;-) A light shield or buckler (American Heritage Dictionary via
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                Art wrote...

                > Tarcza (pl) = shield (eng) as far as I know

                The word "targe" in English is probably a reasonable approximation... ;-)
                "A light shield or buckler" (American Heritage Dictionary via
                dictionary.com)

                Middle English, from Old French (14th century according to Chambers... same
                root as the word 'target').

                HIH

                A.

                ---------------------------
                Alastair Millar, BSc(Hons)
                Consultancy and translation for the heritage industry
                e-mail: alastair@..., http://www.skriptorium.cz
                P.O.Box 685, CZ 111 21 Prague 1, Czech Republic

                .
              • John-Joseph Bober
                ... Yes, that is true, but as a herald I would recommend not doing so, or at least waiting until they ve passed your kingdom s process and gone on to Laurel.
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                  >I'm sure that Jan did not mean to imply that you
                  >cannot display heraldry unless it is passed by the SCA
                  >College of Arms.

                  Yes, that is true, but as a herald I would recommend not doing
                  so, or at least waiting until they've passed your kingdom's process
                  and gone on to Laurel. Now, I am all for heraldic display...I
                  think it is an integral, though sometimes overlooked, part of
                  our game, but coming up with a device and displaying it before
                  you've "gone through the process" can cause problems.
                  Case in point....a friend of mine is walking back from the Pas
                  d'Arms at Pennsic a couple years back, when he notices a banner
                  flying over a camp along the way. Interested by this, he detours
                  to the camp. As he gets closer he notices they have a number
                  of banners, some shields, and other livery all with this device
                  on it. He hails the camp and walks in saying basically, "I'm
                  here". They look at him. He pulls across his shield and says,
                  "Hi, I'm Baron Sir...." and the folks in the camp suddenly realize
                  that the device on the shield - that has been passed for decades
                  - is far too close to what they are displaying (which, btw, had
                  not been passed, or even submitted yet). This is all slightly
                  off topic, and may alude to the "don't make it permenant" comment
                  already made, but as a herald, I'm very leary of displaying unpassed
                  arms - may be a byproduct of the first Brigantia I worked for.

                  Back to topic...you can, if you are creative enough, pass Polish
                  cypher heraldry. Not all of it, but there are some cyphers that
                  can be described in a way to satisfy our anglo-centric heraldry.
                  For instance, my badge is "fieldless, a horseshoe ensigned with
                  a cross fitchy azure"...basically, a horseshoe with a cross on
                  top. I found a basically the same device carved into the wall
                  of St. Mary's Cathedral in Krakow years later. No, you probably
                  can't use some of those cyphers which are no more than squiggly
                  lines, but if you look through the "herby", you can definitely
                  get some ideas which are passable.

                  Jan
                • John-Joseph Bober
                  ... What a fantastic site! It looks like the information is somewhat general - covering all of europe - but I think I m going to see how some translation
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                    > http://www.man.poznan.pl/~ritter/Html/shields.html

                    What a fantastic site! It looks like the information is somewhat
                    general - covering all of europe - but I think I'm going to see
                    how some translation software does on it. Hopefully, there is
                    some "Polish-centric" info in there as well.

                    Jan
                  • Art Plazewski
                    Any problems - let me know so I can help you. Art. ... From: patjohnw [mailto:PatJohnW@PeoplePC.Com] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:24 AM To:
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                      Any problems - let me know so I can help you.
                      Art.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: patjohnw [mailto:PatJohnW@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:24 AM
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [sig] Re: Fencing Tarcze (Buckler)

                      Dziekuje, Art --

                      Yes, the singular for "Shield" is TARCZA, the plural TARCZE
                      I found a great website in Polish on medieval weaponry. The page on
                      Tarcze (Shields) is http://www.man.poznan.pl/~ritter/Html/shields.html

                      Now all I have to do is translate it :})

                      Janusz

                      --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <artplazewski@p...> wrote:
                      > Tarcza (pl) = shield (eng) as far as I know ...the round shields
                      were
                      > Tartar type shields
                      > Art.
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: patjohnw [mailto:PatJohnW@P...]
                      > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:16 AM
                      > To: sig@y...
                      > Subject: [sig] Fencing Tarze (Buckler)
                      >
                      > Hello and Dzien Dobry --
                      >
                      > I am a new SCA member (Midrealm, Barony of Roaring Wastes, Canton of
                      > Fasach Mor) and a recent member of this Yahoo Group. I portray a
                      > Pole from the 15th-16th C (am already involved a 17th C Polish
                      > reenacting activities, and wanted to go back a bit further into
                      > Polish culture/military history). As a Scadian, my interests lie in
                      > Rapier fencing and in Thrown Weapons (axe & knife). The Poles used
                      > the TARZE shield (round shield, like a buckler), and I want to use
                      > this as a shield for fencing. Does anyone know details on the
                      Polish
                      > Tarze, such as design, coats-of-arms, material, etc. [besides being
                      > round, of course :}) ] Otherwise, I'll just go with the bucklers
                      > that are commercially available from SCA fencing suppliers.
                      >
                      > Am glad to hook up with you folks -- I guess this is the closest
                      > thing to a Slavic-based clan in the SCA.
                      >
                      > Janusz Gryf Bykowski
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • patjohnw
                      Thanks to all for your comments re: Polish bucklers (tarcze). If I make one I will use the suggestions from Jan (Post #5601). I am not too concerned as yet
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                        Thanks to all for your comments re: Polish bucklers (tarcze). If I
                        make one I will use the suggestions from Jan (Post #5601). I am not
                        too concerned as yet about the particular devices I will place on the
                        tarcza, only whether or not the Polish nobles actually had devices on
                        the small round shield at all. Eventually I will use my own clan's
                        device on half of my coat of arms, i.e., The Clan of Gryf (Griffon).
                        I know that the SCA Heralds have seen plenty of griffons out there.
                        I also will use another clan's device (Clan of Radlan) -- that's
                        tougher, a 3 part church banner with a Maltese Cross on top of it. I
                        doubt if that would ever pass SCA muster -- we'll see. I have
                        pictures of the clan's coat of arms, but don't know how to describe
                        it in "heraldric" terms (maybe I'll use my wife's clan's device
                        instead [Korczak], just some red and white horizontal stripes). I am
                        not too worried about getting my coat of arms approved at this time --
                        heck, I could use my own Canton's in the meantime, I suppose.

                        Thanks again for your help,

                        Janusz Gryf Bykowski
                      • Jenne Heise
                        ... Actually, the biggest wierdness about Polish heraldry was that it wasn t individual, and the biggest visible wierdness about it was the use of symbols
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                          > Polish heraldry is a weirdness in heraldry for several
                          > reasons. As I understand it, Polish heraldry employed
                          > a more pictorial style than was usually employed in
                          > Western Europe. As well, it frequently broke the rule
                          > of tincture.

                          Actually, the biggest wierdness about Polish heraldry was that it wasn't
                          individual, and the biggest visible wierdness about it was the use of
                          symbols instead of combinations of heraldic items.

                          The only example of breaking the rule of tincture that I can think of that
                          appears frequently is the raven, with or without a ring... Polish heraldry
                          is generally displayed as a metal on a color, but that puts the sable
                          raven on a colored background. Polish heraldry sometimes appears to break
                          the slot machine rule (3 different main charges on one coat), also.

                          Walraven probably has more cogent things to say on this subject, he's seen
                          more of this than the rest of us.

                          Hey, Walraven, would you read over this brief article I wrote up for the
                          Polish Knowledge pages and tell me how to improve it...
                          http://tulgey.browser.net/~jenne/poland/heraldry_article.html

                          --
                          Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                          disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                          "If I dialed the wrong number, why did you answer the phone?" -- Thurber
                        • Shubelka, Mark
                          ... would you list the site so I can add it to the Polish Knowlege page?
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                            > Yes, the singular for "Shield" is TARCZA, the plural TARCZE
                            > I found a great website in Polish on medieval weaponry. 

                            would you list the site so I can add it to the Polish Knowlege page?
                          • pan_landolf
                            I saw two types of round shields when I visited Poland. One was made of metal and dished like a chinese wok, but a little more shallow. These were often
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                              I saw two types of round shields when I visited Poland.

                              One was made of metal and dished like a chinese wok, but a little
                              more shallow. These were often highly engraved or embossed with
                              hunting or battle scenes. Museum Replicas carries two good
                              representations of this type shield, minus the engraving or
                              embossing. I have the larger version.

                              The other was made of wooden strips(elm, I think)worked into a spiral
                              and wrapped with silk. This shield had a center boss that consisted
                              of two pieces, one on the inside and one on the outside sandwiching
                              the wood. It was also dished like a wok. I was unable to determine
                              the technique for wrapping the silk. I have been experimenting with
                              rattan strips to make a shield I can use for SCA combat, both armored
                              and rapier. I have succeeded in getting the rattan into a spiral,
                              but I'm still working on the wrapping.

                              I think the second style would be great for rapier combat because the
                              ridges made in the surface by the cloth wrapping technique would
                              better control your opponent's rapier tip, provided the material used
                              was puncture resistant.

                              Landolf


                              --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <artplazewski@p...> wrote:
                              > Tarcza (pl) = shield (eng) as far as I know ...the round shields
                              were
                              > Tartar type shields
                              > Art.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: patjohnw [mailto:PatJohnW@P...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:16 AM
                              > To: sig@y...
                              > Subject: [sig] Fencing Tarze (Buckler)
                              >
                              > Hello and Dzien Dobry --
                              >
                              > I am a new SCA member (Midrealm, Barony of Roaring Wastes, Canton of
                              > Fasach Mor) and a recent member of this Yahoo Group. I portray a
                              > Pole from the 15th-16th C (am already involved a 17th C Polish
                              > reenacting activities, and wanted to go back a bit further into
                              > Polish culture/military history). As a Scadian, my interests lie in
                              > Rapier fencing and in Thrown Weapons (axe & knife). The Poles used
                              > the TARZE shield (round shield, like a buckler), and I want to use
                              > this as a shield for fencing. Does anyone know details on the
                              Polish
                              > Tarze, such as design, coats-of-arms, material, etc. [besides being
                              > round, of course :}) ] Otherwise, I'll just go with the bucklers
                              > that are commercially available from SCA fencing suppliers.
                              >
                              > Am glad to hook up with you folks -- I guess this is the closest
                              > thing to a Slavic-based clan in the SCA.
                              >
                              > Janusz Gryf Bykowski
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Jenny Stewart
                              ... Sable is considered a metal - Iron, IIRC Enna
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                                > is generally displayed as a metal on a color, but that puts the sable

                                Sable is considered a metal - Iron, IIRC
                                Enna
                              • Jenne Heise
                                ... In Anglo-Norman and in SCA heraldry, Sable (Black) is a color, not a metal. See Modar s Heraldry pages, _A Heraldic Primer_,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                                  > > is generally displayed as a metal on a color, but that puts the sable
                                  > Sable is considered a metal - Iron, IIRC
                                  > Enna

                                  In Anglo-Norman and in SCA heraldry, Sable (Black) is a color, not a
                                  metal.
                                  See Modar's Heraldry pages, _A Heraldic Primer_,
                                  http://www.sca.org/heraldry/primer/tinctures.html
                                  for more information

                                  -- Jadwiga

                                  --
                                  Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                                  disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                                  "If I dialed the wrong number, why did you answer the phone?" -- Thurber
                                • John-Joseph Bober
                                  ... not a metal. Absolutely! In some other continental heraldic systems, Sable is a fur.... Jan
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                                    >In Anglo-Norman and in SCA heraldry, Sable (Black) is a color,
                                    not a metal.
                                    Absolutely! In some other continental heraldic systems, Sable
                                    is a fur....

                                    Jan
                                  • Jeff Smith
                                    ... Sable is considered  a metal - Iron, IIRC Enna Nope. There are two metals (gold and silver, or Or and argent) and five colors (red, green,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                                      --- Jenny Stewart <tbv@...> wrote:

                                      Sable is considered  a metal - Iron, IIRC<BR>
                                      Enna<BR>

                                      Nope. There are two metals (gold and silver, or Or
                                      and argent) and five colors (red, green, blue, purple,
                                      and black, or gules, vert, azure, purpur, and sable).
                                      The real sable is a mink-like animal, not iron.

                                      Janos

                                      =====
                                      JEFFREY C. SMITH
                                      Heidelberg, Germany

                                      "There goes one more thing that I said I would never do" -Kelly Bundy

                                      __________________________________________________
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                                    • Diane Sawyer
                                      ... Excellent advice. ... I may have conflated Polish heraldry with German, which, as I recall from discussion on SCA-Heralds, sometime placed gules on sable
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                                        --- Jeff Smith <janos@...> wrote:
                                        > All:
                                        > I'm coming into this late, but my advice (as a
                                        > herald)
                                        > is that devices/arms should not be *made permanent*
                                        > into anything until they are approved by the College
                                        > of Arms (i.e., Laurel). That is, don't carve it in
                                        > leather or engrave it, etc. If your plan is to
                                        > paint
                                        > it on a shield, feel free, since (if it has to be
                                        > changed) it can be painted over.

                                        Excellent advice.

                                        > There are some good sources of info on Polish
                                        > heraldry. I don't recall one that broke the rules
                                        > of
                                        > tincture.

                                        I may have conflated Polish heraldry with German,
                                        which, as I recall from discussion on SCA-Heralds,
                                        sometime placed gules on sable (red on black) or vice
                                        versa.

                                        > Typically though, Polish-style heraldry
                                        > is
                                        > based on symbols which may or may not be describable
                                        > using Franco-English heraldic terms (imagine, for
                                        > example, a 4 with a few extra lines). If it is
                                        > describable, it can be used. If not, it can't.
                                        > If you'd like some examples on line, I'll have to
                                        > look
                                        > for them. Contact me off line if you're interested.
                                        > Barcsi Janos
                                        >
                                        {snip}

                                        Tasha


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                                      • Jeff Smith
                                        ... > There are some good sources of info on Polish > heraldry.  I don t recall one that broke the rules > of > tincture. 
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                                          --- Diane Sawyer <tasha_medvedeva@...> wrote:
                                          > There are some good sources of info on Polish<BR>
                                          > heraldry.  I don't recall one that broke the
                                          rules<BR>
                                          > of<BR>
                                          > tincture.  <BR>
                                          <BR>
                                          I may have conflated Polish heraldry with German,<BR>
                                          which, as I recall from discussion on SCA-Heralds,<BR>
                                          sometime placed gules on sable (red on black) or
                                          vice<BR>
                                          versa.<BR>

                                          Actually, there are a few. I looked up Polish
                                          Heraldry on Yahoo and found a few digital rolls of
                                          arms. One of them showed the black bird on a blue
                                          field that someone (may have been you) described
                                          earlier. Such armory, while Polish, is not typical
                                          and is probably a foreign grant. Usually, Polish
                                          heraldry is a cipher using white on red.

                                          I did find several exceptions though (there are such
                                          exceptions everywhere and in every heraldic system).

                                          Janos

                                          =====
                                          JEFFREY C. SMITH
                                          Heidelberg, Germany

                                          "There goes one more thing that I said I would never do" -Kelly Bundy

                                          __________________________________________________
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                                        • Diane Sawyer
                                          ... Sorry, no. Sable is considered a color in the SCA. Tasha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                                            --- Jenny Stewart <tbv@...> wrote:
                                            > > is generally displayed as a metal on a color, but
                                            > that puts the sable
                                            >
                                            > Sable is considered a metal - Iron, IIRC
                                            > Enna
                                            >

                                            Sorry, no. Sable is considered a color in the SCA.

                                            Tasha

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                                          • patjohnw
                                            I m sorry for the confusion (?) I may have started what appears to be disagreement among heralds -- not exactly on point, methinks. Well, I can only look to
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 8, 2002
                                              I'm sorry for the confusion (?) I may have started what appears to be
                                              disagreement among heralds -- not exactly on point, methinks. Well,
                                              I can only look to my research on Polish heraldry (herby) and would
                                              like to share this website for all who might be interested in Polish
                                              Clan Coats of Arms:

                                              check out
                                              http://www.polonium.de/docs/ciekawostki/herby/win/index.html

                                              As I learn more about heraldry, I'll understand what you folks are
                                              talking about (maybe). In the meantime, the Polish Coats of Arms are
                                              very interesting, but also hard to describe. Some of them are based
                                              on old Sarmation symbols and have no counterpart in Western Europe.
                                              Also, they are not all red over white or white over red.

                                              Back to fencing ...

                                              Janusz


                                              -- In sig@y..., Diane Sawyer <tasha_medvedeva@y...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- Jenny Stewart <tbv@n...> wrote:
                                              > > > is generally displayed as a metal on a color, but
                                              > > that puts the sable
                                              > >
                                              > > Sable is considered a metal - Iron, IIRC
                                              > > Enna
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > Sorry, no. Sable is considered a color in the SCA.
                                              >
                                              > Tasha
                                              >
                                              > __________________________________________________
                                              > Do You Yahoo!?
                                              > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
                                              > http://greetings.yahoo.com
                                            • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                              Greetings Art! ... In German there was the best, I think, classification of tarches. There was Brusttartsche of special shape (am not a heraldry specialist, so
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 9, 2002
                                                Greetings Art!

                                                > Tarcza (pl) = shield (eng) as far as I know ...the round shields were
                                                > Tartar type shields
                                                > Art.

                                                In German there was the best, I think, classification of tarches.
                                                There was Brusttartsche of special shape (am not a heraldry specialist,
                                                so don't know the exact term for the shield with right angles at the
                                                top but rounded at the bottom), invented for jousting. It was, as it
                                                is said by the scholars I've read in both languages, of Magyar origin.
                                                Also, there was a Rundtartsche, that COULD be of oriental (not
                                                necessarily Tartar) origin, most likely hanging on the elbow. BTW
                                                Swiss infantry (pikineurs' first row) went on using that until
                                                30-years war.

                                                Bye,
                                                Posadnik.
                                              • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                                Greetings to pan! ... Well, it s a pattern developed in Near East, a shield of fig branches, extremely strong though flexible. Gorelik mentions that in his
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 9, 2002
                                                  Greetings to pan!

                                                  > The other was made of wooden strips(elm, I think)worked into a spiral
                                                  > and wrapped with silk.  This shield had a center boss that consisted
                                                  > of two pieces, one on the inside and one on the outside sandwiching
                                                  > the wood.  It was also dished like a wok.  I was unable to determine
                                                  > the technique for wrapping the silk. 

                                                  Well, it's a pattern developed in Near East, a shield of fig
                                                  branches, extremely strong though flexible. Gorelik mentions that in
                                                  his Oruzhie Drevnego Vostoka (Moscow, Nauka/Vostochnaya Literatura,
                                                  1992). They spread throughout the wholke Moslem world, "nextdoor
                                                  neighbors" included. The technique is very much like basket-weaving,
                                                  with silk cord instead of radial rods. Changing the color of cords
                                                  made the ornament.
                                                  There was a kind of rim enforcement, by iron band or thicker weaving
                                                  (seen both cases). On the rear side there was either a pair of
                                                  close-one-to another-fit parallel leather belts to grip (early
                                                  Oriental fashion) or a pair of crossed belts in the middle and the
                                                  third belt closer to the rim. That allowed to hang it on the elbow,
                                                  leaving the hand free, or grip it as a central-grip shield, or use it
                                                  as a Greekish-style device, with one belt embracing the arm below the
                                                  elbow, and the other gripped by the hand.

                                                  BTW, metal shields with chased spiral patterns imitate exactly
                                                  that woven device.

                                                  Bye,
                                                  Posadnik.
                                                • Jenny Stewart
                                                  What the herald meant to say was... The discussion was referring to Polish heraldry, wherein it is my understanding that black is considered a metal, thus
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Feb 9, 2002
                                                    What the herald meant to say was...
                                                    The discussion was referring to Polish heraldry, wherein it is my
                                                    understanding that black is considered a metal, thus accounting for the red
                                                    & black usage, Or, naybe that is just someone's interpretation of what is
                                                    seen so that it fits into the usual colour/metal rules.

                                                    and, as I tell folks who want to use black & red, it may have been used on
                                                    the continet, but you have to show examples of it being done and of being
                                                    done the way you want to.

                                                    > The real sable is a mink-like animal, not iron
                                                    yeah.
                                                  • Jenne Heise
                                                    ... I suspect, from what I ve read, that Polish armory is generally actually tinctureless, and certain arms are traditionally depicted either as gold on blue
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Feb 10, 2002
                                                      > Actually, there are a few. I looked up Polish
                                                      > Heraldry on Yahoo and found a few digital rolls of
                                                      > arms. One of them showed the black bird on a blue
                                                      > field that someone (may have been you) described
                                                      > earlier. Such armory, while Polish, is not typical
                                                      > and is probably a foreign grant. Usually, Polish
                                                      > heraldry is a cipher using white on red.

                                                      I suspect, from what I've read, that Polish armory is generally actually
                                                      tinctureless, and certain arms are traditionally depicted either as gold
                                                      on blue or white on red based on some obscure habit. Certainly the rolls
                                                      of arms include a lot of gold on blue as well as white on red. I've also
                                                      seen gold on red and white on blue. It's possible the color changes may
                                                      have been imported but given the mythic origins of much medieval Polish
                                                      clan herby, it's difficult to tell. I'm not sure how this would have
                                                      worked, either, as some are specifically used in Poland before by clans
                                                      before 1500, so I'm not sure how a clan would end up granted a herb by a
                                                      non-Polish ruler... generally non-Polish rulers granted armory to
                                                      individuals, I thought.


                                                      --
                                                      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                                                      disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                                                      "If I dialed the wrong number, why did you answer the phone?" -- Thurber
                                                    • John-Joseph Bober
                                                      Back to the actual shields being discussed.... I don t know if anyone else brought this up, but there is a picture of the oversized wok example in the first
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Feb 11, 2002
                                                        Back to the actual shields being discussed....

                                                        I don't know if anyone else brought this up, but there is a picture
                                                        of the "oversized wok" example in the first of the Osprey books
                                                        on Polish Armor.
                                                        Also, I was thinking about this on the way home...if you want
                                                        to apply fabric to wood, I'd suggest a mixture of glue - Elmer's
                                                        should work fine - and water, and essentially paint it on the
                                                        wood, and adhere the fabric to it.
                                                        For a less permanent version, may I suggest eyelets and a drawstring
                                                        on the back side of the shield.

                                                        Jan
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