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Re: Dyeing [sig] Men's tunics

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  • Jenn/Yana
    ... I think I know where you read that. It was in Women s Work: the First 20,000 years: women, cloth, and society in early times. by E.J.W. Barber. She
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 20, 2002
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      >I seem to recall reading that red was a lucky color,
      >viewed as protective, and that that's why it was
      >typically placed at the openings of the tunic (collar,
      >cuffs, and bottom hem)... perhaps the red gussets were
      >to protect the meridians of the body from evil
      >spirits? I'm really stretching here, but it's as good
      >(or bad) a theory as any.
      >
      >Tasha


      I think I know where you read that. It was in "Women's Work: the First
      20,000 years: women, cloth, and society in early times." by E.J.W.
      Barber. She mentioned the red=protection from evil and that it was placed
      at the "entries" to the body for such purposes. Of course, I can't recall
      _where_ she found the information.

      --Yana
    • Diane Sawyer
      ... I wish I could remember where I left that book; I never did finish it. :-) Tasha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 20, 2002
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        --- Jenn/Yana <slavic@...> wrote:
        >
        > >I seem to recall reading that red was a lucky
        > color,
        > >viewed as protective, and that that's why it was
        > >typically placed at the openings of the tunic
        > (collar,
        > >cuffs, and bottom hem)... perhaps the red gussets
        > were
        > >to protect the meridians of the body from evil
        > >spirits? I'm really stretching here, but it's as
        > good
        > >(or bad) a theory as any.
        > >
        > >Tasha
        >
        >
        > I think I know where you read that. It was in
        > "Women's Work: the First
        > 20,000 years: women, cloth, and society in early
        > times." by E.J.W.
        > Barber. She mentioned the red=protection from evil
        > and that it was placed
        > at the "entries" to the body for such purposes. Of
        > course, I can't recall
        > _where_ she found the information.
        >
        > --Yana
        >

        I wish I could remember where I left that book; I
        never did finish it. :-)

        Tasha

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      • kataryna_dragonweaver
        ... ... Being new here.... I don t know if anyone has mentioned this but the colour red used on a Ukrainian egg has the traditional symbolic
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 28, 2002
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          <snip>
          > > >I seem to recall reading that red was a lucky
          > > color,
          > > >viewed as protective, and that that's why it was
          > > >typically placed at the openings of the tunic
          <snip>
          > > >
          > > >Tasha

          Being new here.... I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the
          colour red used on a Ukrainian egg has the traditional symbolic
          meaning of magic, action, spiritual awakening, fire, charity, the sun,
          passion. I've seen it used often with symbols that signify protection
          especially of protection for children. I'd think it would be likely
          that the symbolism would cross into other things (like clothing).
          -Kataryna
        • kataryna_dragonweaver
          Try #2, sorry if this repeats... ... Being new here.... I don t know if anyone has mentioned this. In Ukrainian traditional pysanka (egg) symbolism red
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 28, 2002
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            Try #2, sorry if this repeats...

            > --- Jenn/Yana <slavic@m...> wrote:

            > > >I seem to recall reading that red was a lucky
            > > color,
            > > >viewed as protective, and that that's why it was
            > > >typically placed at the openings of the tunic
            > > (collar,
            > > >cuffs, and bottom hem).
            <snip>

            Being new here....
            I don't know if anyone has mentioned this. In Ukrainian
            traditional pysanka (egg) symbolism red is magic, the sun, passsion,
            action, charity, fire, and spiritual awakening. I could see this
            belief in the symbolism of the colour crossing into clothing.
            -Kataryna
          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 1/29/2002 6:54:28 PM Central Standard Time, ... That is a modern interpretation. The danger with trying to interpret medieval Russian
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 29, 2002
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              In a message dated 1/29/2002 6:54:28 PM Central Standard Time,
              eclipsek@... writes:


              > I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the
              > colour red used on a Ukrainian egg has the traditional symbolic
              > meaning of magic, action, spiritual awakening, fire, charity, the sun,
              > passion.

              That is a modern interpretation. The danger with trying to interpret medieval
              Russian designs (or anything else) when we're familiar with folklore or
              modern traditions is that there usually isn't a straight, clear connection
              through the centuries.

              Yes, red is prevalent in Russian art (and clothing), but why -- there is no
              answer to that, at least not as specific as we'd want. All we have is, "they
              liked it."

              Predslava.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Diane Sawyer
              ... {snip} ... Works for me... I like red, too! Tasha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 30, 2002
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                --- MHoll@... wrote:
                {snip}
                >
                > Yes, red is prevalent in Russian art (and clothing),
                > but why -- there is no
                > answer to that, at least not as specific as we'd
                > want. All we have is, "they
                > liked it."
                >
                > Predslava.

                Works for me... I like red, too!

                Tasha

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              • Jenne Heise
                ... -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@mail.browser.net disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me. You re down as expendable.
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 30, 2002
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                  >
                  > In a message dated 1/29/2002 6:54:28 PM Central Standard Time,
                  > eclipsek@... writes:
                  >
                  >
                  > > I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the
                  > > colour red used on a Ukrainian egg has the traditional symbolic
                  > > meaning of magic, action, spiritual awakening, fire, charity, the sun,
                  > > passion.
                  >
                  > That is a modern interpretation. The danger with trying to interpret medieval
                  > Russian designs (or anything else) when we're familiar with folklore or
                  > modern traditions is that there usually isn't a straight, clear connection
                  > through the centuries.
                  >
                  > Yes, red is prevalent in Russian art (and clothing), but why -- there is no
                  > answer to that, at least not as specific as we'd want. All we have is, "they
                  > liked it."
                  >
                  > Predslava.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                  disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                  "You're down as expendable. You don't get a weapon." Diana Wynne Jones
                • MHoll@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/30/2002 9:58:37 AM Central Standard Time, ... The strange thing is, Masha doesn t like it much. But Predslava goes ga-ga over it (as our
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 30, 2002
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                    In a message dated 1/30/2002 9:58:37 AM Central Standard Time,
                    tasha_medvedeva@... writes:


                    > Works for me... I like red, too!
                    >
                    The strange thing is, Masha doesn't like it much. But Predslava goes ga-ga
                    over it (as our oldest daughter likes to say).

                    Predslava.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • posadnik1
                    Greetings! ... passsion, ... AFA we, Russian pegans :-) know, the same color is neither borrowimg no coincidence. According to Ryubakov, head scholar in the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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                      Greetings!
                      >
                      > Being new here....
                      > I don't know if anyone has mentioned this. In Ukrainian
                      > traditional pysanka (egg) symbolism red is magic, the sun,
                      passsion,
                      > action, charity, fire, and spiritual awakening. I could see this
                      > belief in the symbolism of the colour crossing into clothing.
                      > -Kataryna

                      AFA we, Russian pegans :-) know, the same color is neither borrowimg
                      no coincidence. According to Ryubakov, head scholar in the problem,
                      the habit to eat eggs is general Indo-European, at least common with
                      Russians & Iranic peoples. It symbolized fertility. And red color was
                      the substitute for blood which covers the newly-born child. As for
                      the dress, it really meant sun & fire, but those two things were
                      synchronous so God knows what belief they _both_ come from.

                      Alex.
                    • Jenne Heise
                      ... To English-speaking folklore scholars, the widespread use of eggs for magic and symbolism seems to be much more varied in the Indo-European tradition than
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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                        > AFA we, Russian pegans :-) know, the same color is neither borrowimg
                        > no coincidence. According to Ryubakov, head scholar in the problem,
                        > the habit to eat eggs is general Indo-European, at least common with
                        > Russians & Iranic peoples. It symbolized fertility. And red color was
                        > the substitute for blood which covers the newly-born child. As for
                        > the dress, it really meant sun & fire, but those two things were
                        > synchronous so God knows what belief they _both_ come from.

                        To English-speaking folklore scholars, the widespread use of eggs for
                        magic and symbolism seems to be much more varied in the Indo-European
                        tradition than mere fertility-- they were used to cure illness, scare away
                        lightning, maintain health, etc. There are many accounts of
                        burials of eggs in graves, possibly either as food or as symbolic of
                        resurection/return to life. Sometimes the egg was symbolic of the sun, or
                        of purity. Red eggs at Easter would have had especially mixed messages in
                        Christian times. Do we have any documentation of red eggs predating
                        Christian times?

                        --
                        Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                        disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                        "If I dialed the wrong number, why did you answer the phone?" -- Thurber
                      • MHoll@aol.com
                        Be careful always to look for references in period documents. There is very little that can be said with any certainty about pre-Christian beliefs and rituals.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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                          Be careful always to look for references in period documents. There is very little that can be said with any certainty about pre-Christian beliefs and rituals.

                          Predslava
                        • Jenne Heise
                          ... In fact, there are a severely limited number of period documents that refer to Slavs, including Russians, at all. However, in the case of something like
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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                            > Be careful always to look for references in period documents. There is
                            > very little that can be said with any certainty about pre-Christian
                            > beliefs and rituals.

                            In fact, there are a severely limited number of period documents that
                            refer to Slavs, including Russians, at all. However, in the case of
                            something like red eggs, IF archaelogical investigation found red-dyed
                            eggshells or red-dyed eggs in an archaeological site dating before the
                            Christian period would be another piece of information. Wouldn't tell us
                            WHAT they used the red-dyed eggs for, though.

                            --
                            Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                            disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                            "If I dialed the wrong number, why did you answer the phone?" -- Thurber
                          • Susan Koziel
                            IF archaelogical investigation found red-dyed ... I was once told that egg shell disintegrates to rapidly to be found in digs, and that may be one of the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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                              IF archaelogical investigation found red-dyed<BR>
                              >eggshells or red-dyed eggs in an archaeological site dating before the<BR>

                              >Christian period would be another piece of information.

                              I was once told that egg shell disintegrates to rapidly to be found in digs,
                              and that may be one of the reasons that the only eggs found are those made of
                              Clay.
                              Can anyone here verify that?
                              -Kataryna
                            • Alexey Kiyaikin
                              Greetings Yadviga! ... If you agree to wait a little, to answer the question about eggs as a fertility symbol I ll spend a couple of hours translating some
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                Greetings Yadviga!

                                >
                                > To English-speaking folklore scholars, the widespread use of eggs for
                                > magic and symbolism seems to be much more varied in the Indo-European
                                > tradition than mere fertility-- they were used to cure illness, scare away
                                > lightning, maintain health, etc. There are many accounts of
                                > burials of eggs in graves, possibly either as food or as symbolic of
                                > resurection/return to life. Sometimes the egg was symbolic of the sun, or
                                > of purity. Red eggs at Easter would have had especially mixed messages in
                                > Christian times. Do we have any documentation of red eggs predating
                                > Christian times?
                                >
                                If you agree to wait a little, to answer the question about eggs as a
                                fertility symbol I'll spend a couple of hours
                                translating some pages from the basic work on pre-Christian beliefs in
                                Russia, "Yazichestvo Drevnikh Slavian" Moscow, Nauka, 1994. As for the
                                egg symbolism in general, here's a little bit of scientific speculation. As the
                                Deus Creator of the ancient eastern Slavs was Rod (corresponding to Sviatovit
                                of the western Slacs), symbols closely connected with him are stated
                                as the following:
                                lightning (not the linear, actually, but a ball of fire, "rodia"), red
                                color ("rudy" in Ukrainian & Polish, also Germanic "rot", & English
                                "red" - it's a word from the common indo-european language base),
                                fire (a little bit like infernal or volcanic - "rodstvo" - to be found
                                in early anti-pagan books), dew ("rodie"), birth ("rozhdenie"), clan
                                ("rod"), crops ("urozhai"), and his own symbol is
                                considered to be a 6-radius star in a circle - "thunderwheel", to be
                                carved right under the top beam (koniok) of roof of nearly (or practically,-
                                no evidence, you
                                see, earlier than XVII-XVIII cent., though the group of terms for such
                                facilities is VERY old) every wooden house decorated with traditional
                                protective symbolism. So, about a half of meaning connected with Rod
                                are connected with fertility & agriculture, the other half being his
                                symbols & instruments. As we know about other Indo-European peoples,
                                at least those who had a kind of history at first worshipped the One who
                                created the world and helped his people with new crops (in Russia
                                Rod's day was celebrated on 20 July/7 August, about end of X century
                                the date was occupied by worshippers of Perun, though some Rod
                                symbolism still remained - see Rybakov, "Yazitchestvo Drevnei Rousi",
                                Moscow, Nauka, 1988)only then the real polytheism started.
                                We can remember at least the Greek Dius, or the
                                Roman Deus Pater, or the Baltic Dziaus, Iranic Devs or the Old Russian
                                Dyi (Rybakov, Snisarenko). Their attention switched from fertility to
                                law and then military
                                notions So, at least most Indo-European nations _could_ (and sometimes
                                they did)use a fertility symbol as a symbol of Rod whose role was
                                incarnating into everything being, and whose special care was moving
                                the wheel of annual vegetation & animal birth cycles. And as his
                                "other speciality" was ruling the lightnings, the same symbol could
                                have been used as a "lightning-proof" device. So, at least for the
                                Old Iranians the use of such eggs was documented (seen the reference a
                                month ago, looking for something else; if i remember the source, I'll
                                post the exact statement), and, as we know borrowings from that source
                                took place at least twice (first in Scythian times, then before the
                                religious reform of 980 - Rybakov), we can rather firmly state, that in this
                                part of Christian world the habit of eating eggs and colouring them
                                for that was older than their Christianity. Has anybody taken any
                                evidence/records, if baptized Japanese/Mongols ate eggs at Easter?

                                My literature on the problem, though much unlikely available in English:

                                acad. Boris Rybakov "Yazichestvo Drevnikh Slavian", M., Nauka, 1984
                                (?), second edition 1994, third edition Sophia 2000 or 2001, ISBN
                                5-02-009585-0 (for 2nd edition).
                                "Yazithestvo Drevnei Rousi" M., Nauka, 1988, second edition Sophia
                                2001, ISBN 5-220-00452-2 (for 2nd ed.)

                                cand. sc. Nikolai (?) Snisarenko, "Tretii Poias Mudrosti. Blesk Yazichesloi
                                Evropi" Leningrad, Sudostroenie, 1988 (?).

                                Alexander Gilferding, "Istoriia Baltiiskikh Slavian" first ed. Saint
                                Petersburg 1895, my copy is a xeroxed Moscow VNIIOENG 1994.
                              • MHoll@aol.com
                                In a message dated 2/10/2002 3:29:48 AM Central Standard Time, ... I am familiar with this book. It is well written, but its conclusions can t be trusted at
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 10, 2002
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                                  In a message dated 2/10/2002 3:29:48 AM Central Standard Time,
                                  Posadnik@... writes:


                                  > "Yazichestvo Drevnikh Slavian" Moscow, Nauka, 1994.

                                  I am familiar with this book. It is well written, but its conclusions can't
                                  be trusted at face value. He brings in too muchn modern information, too much
                                  19-th century folklore and ethnography. His period "documents" are mostly
                                  images and artifacts that exist in a vacuum of information: The objects are
                                  there, but there are no contemporary commentaries on them whatsoever. To
                                  determine the function and significance of these artifacts, the author uses a
                                  great variety of information, not all of it geographically consistent. He
                                  largely ignores the influence of non-European peoples on parts of Eastern and
                                  Central Europe.

                                  The problem is that there is no easily followed continuity of tradition and
                                  belief in Eastern and Central Europe, and that outward similarities do not
                                  mean identical significance. How do we know for sure that what we imagine as
                                  artifacts related to rituals were not games equipment? How do we know that a
                                  carved object is ritual rather than pure art? Without corroborating evidence
                                  *from the same culture*, we cannot draw conclusions, and that is what this
                                  author tends to do.

                                  Predslava


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                  Greetings Predslava! It s a great pity you didn t have the _context_ sources of the book. I did. ... No vacuum of information. He simply makes the statement
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 10, 2002
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                                    Greetings Predslava!
                                    It's a great pity you didn't have the _context_ sources of the book. I
                                    did.
                                    >> "Yazichestvo Drevnikh Slavian" Moscow, Nauka, 1994.
                                    >
                                    > I am familiar with this book. It is well written, but its conclusions can't
                                    > be trusted at face value. He brings in too muchn modern information, too much
                                    > 19-th century folklore and ethnography. His period "documents" are mostly
                                    > images and artifacts that exist in a vacuum of information: The objects are
                                    No vacuum of information. He simply makes the statement clear for a
                                    tradition-bearer, whom any Russian, playing VERY traditional & period
                                    games, actually is. Also, the question was very actively developed in
                                    1920s by then-existing scholars, acad. Propp among them. His treating
                                    some notions of Russian fairy tales as the remnants of ancient
                                    hunters'clans beliefs, isn't out-of date now. The same with Ivanov &
                                    Toporov inquiries on the notion of supernatural personalities in folk
                                    lore. The same with simple mentioning some tradition without reminding
                                    of its overall character. He does forget sometimes that not even all
                                    the Russians remember the whole length of traditional peasants' annual
                                    celebrations. But he doesn't invent anything. Otherwise he would have
                                    long been disproved, as he occupied an odious position of The Chief
                                    Soviet Historian and the author of the school medieval history book.
                                    But he wasn't.

                                    > there, but there are no contemporary commentaries on them whatsoever. To
                                    Lots of. Anti-pagan period literature, he cites in great amounts. The
                                    reports of German missionaires, regularly sending messages to their
                                    chiefs, while founding & growing their missions in West Slavic lands.
                                    Ancient authors. Arabic geography books, that were put into scientific
                                    use of the Slavists specially by him. Though I agree, the Slavic part
                                    of his trilogy was weaker than the Russian one ("Yazichestvo Drevnei
                                    Rousi", 1988). Also, his main interest is not with Central Europe, as
                                    well as his sources. He studies the early days of Russia. Many of his
                                    sources were recovered by _his_ archaeological expeditions, such as
                                    the famous clay calendar-pots of the IV century, which really well
                                    match the vegetation cycles and the usual periods of rain in the area
                                    they were found. Just try that. Traet the first book as Schlimann, and
                                    then pass on to Evans & Smith. - And don't you remember that even in
                                    1920s there were plenty of scholars, considering the Beowulf a mere
                                    fake?

                                    > determine the function and significance of these artifacts, the author uses a
                                    > great variety of information, not all of it geographically consistent. He
                                    Sorry, but what consistency do you want to have, when he _states_ and
                                    shows that the Balcans were inhabited by the troops of the
                                    "traditional" western & eastern Slavs, keeping to the same religion,
                                    or when he mentions (as it is the
                                    common knowledge with Russians at least slightly interested in
                                    history) that Russian beliefs were greatly influenced by native
                                    tribes, mostly Finnish or having the same hunters' culture (the
                                    "yazichestvo...", chapters 2,3), or when he points at the striking
                                    similarity of the linguistically-proved fact of the ancient
                                    linguistical unity of the indo-europeans in south-east Europe to the
                                    beliefs of those Indo-European nations when they were already apart.
                                    There's plenty of evidence from the Tripolie archaeological culture
                                    that life those days (XII cent BC)had too much in common with at least
                                    XIX-cent Ukraine. Well, when Frazer says something of the kind, he
                                    isn't supposed to present nothing.
                                    > largely ignores the influence of non-European peoples on parts of Eastern and
                                    > Central Europe.
                                    The chapters mentioned. Also, the first 3-4 chapters of Yazichestvo
                                    Drevnei Rousi, when he treats the reasons of splitting the Slavs
                                    into western and eastern ones.
                                    >
                                    > The problem is that there is no easily followed continuity of tradition and
                                    > belief in Eastern and Central Europe, and that outward similarities do not
                                    ?????????????
                                    If the Russians play the traditional song-game at Koupala (Midsummer),
                                    singing
                                    - A mi proso seyali, seyali,
                                    Oi, did Lado, seyali, seyali -
                                    and there is evidence of Lada the goddess, is it a followed
                                    continuity? Just try the second book by Rybakov, he traces the
                                    straight line until XII century. Later there were problems with the
                                    Mongols, who supported the church and made Russian people unite
                                    as Christians, when they turned to Islam. But as we know tsar Ivan IV
                                    addressed the church with 100 (!) questions about bad state of
                                    religion in Russia in 1480, is it continuity? Povest Vremennykh Let
                                    traces Russian history to eneolythic times, and I call this
                                    continuity. Lots of then existing complexes of beliefs still exist.

                                    > mean identical significance. How do we know for sure that what we imagine as
                                    > artifacts related to rituals were not games equipment? How do we know that a
                                    Just because we DO know first comes the tradition among the adults,
                                    only then the children's play. Cf. traditional games.
                                    > carved object is ritual rather than pure art? Without corroborating evidence
                                    As it is ALWAYS intertwined in primitive societies. Modernism and
                                    Post-modernism are not at question when the whole world around you is
                                    perceived anew.
                                    > *from the same culture*, we cannot draw conclusions, and that is what this
                                    > author tends to do.
                                    As no historian of my acquaintances says he feeds us with fake stuff,
                                    I'd rather say he uses scientifically correct arguments.

                                    Bye,
                                    Posadnik.
                                  • Susan Koziel
                                    ... I can wait as long as it takes. Thanks. ... -Kataryna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Feb 10, 2002
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                                      Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:

                                      > If you agree to wait a little, to answer the question about eggs as a
                                      > fertility symbol I'll spend a couple of hours
                                      > translating some pages from the basic work on pre-Christian beliefs in
                                      >
                                      > Russia,

                                      I can wait as long as it takes.
                                      Thanks.
                                      :)
                                      -Kataryna


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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