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Re: [sig] Fw: this made me think of you

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  • Jeff Smith
    ... Does this look as false to you as it does to me?  (I m not a herald, but I am pretty sure that Russians didn t really do
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 7, 2001
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      --- Erin-Lee Halstad <ehalstad@...> wrote:

      <HR>
      <html><body>
      <tt>
      Does this look as false to you as it does to me? 
      (I'm not a herald, but I<BR>
      am pretty sure that Russians didn't really do
      heraldry.)<BR>

      There is/was Russian heraldry. Here are more sites:
      http://sunsite.cs.msu.su/heraldry/coat.html
      http://heraldry.hobby.ru/frame/e.herald.html
      http://jurix.jura.uni-sb.de/~serko/history/heral_h.html
      (Belarus)

      The Belarus site claims to have 15th century arms on
      it, but I'm not sure how widespread armory was in
      Russia in period. It seems to me that the book is
      legit, but I doubt anything in it is period.

      Janos
      (who is herald, but doesn't know much about Russians)

      =====
      JEFFREY C. SMITH
      Heidelberg, Germany

      "There are no useful suggestions to be found in 'give peace a chance' when the other side has dedicated itself to a bloody holy war against American men, women and children.
      Now, if someone wants to write a song that goes something like: 'All we are saying is give a sustained aerial bombing with coordinated ground assaults a chance' that might be helpful." -- Jonah Goldberg

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    • MHoll@aol.com
      In a message dated 11/7/2001 9:02:29 AM Central Standard Time, ... More like misleading. Indeed, there was no Russian heraldry in period, at least not in the
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 7, 2001
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        In a message dated 11/7/2001 9:02:29 AM Central Standard Time,
        ehalstad@... writes:


        > Does this look as false to you as it does to me? (I'm not a herald, but I
        >

        More like misleading. Indeed, there was no Russian heraldry in period, at
        least not in the way Western heraldic tradition defines it. Nothing useable
        in the SCA, certainly not to register arms.

        Some of the Western principalities (Galycia, for instance) may have used arms
        while under the influence/control of Poland. Same with the Baltic States
        which have been under German control at various times, and these may be the
        "early" arms the authors will show.

        The pub. date (1970s) siggests to me that the authors may have used the
        familiar Soviet misleading terminology to define "Russian" principalities.

        Note that the time period extends to the XIX century -- most entries will be
        18th century and later.

        If you want to add the book to your collection, that's one thing. It may be
        interesting.

        If you want to use it for SCA purposes, it will probably be useless.

        *****************************
        Predslava Vydrina
        Per fess embattled azure and gules, two otters passant or.
        <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html">Russian History Trivia Page</A>
        (http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 11/7/2001 9:31:16 AM Central Standard Time, ... Just completely OOP. Predslava. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 7, 2001
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          In a message dated 11/7/2001 9:31:16 AM Central Standard Time,
          janos@... writes:


          > There is/was Russian heraldry.

          Just completely OOP.

          Predslava.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Marilee Humason
          Well, we know they didn t really do Personal Hereldry. Maybe they did do things like Principalities. Can anyone who has been to Russia shed some light? I
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 7, 2001
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            Well, we know they didn't really do "Personal"
            Hereldry. Maybe they did do things like
            Principalities.
            Can anyone who has been to Russia shed some light? I
            found that 16th century and on in Slovakia defiantely
            has Hereldry.
            Baroness Anastasia
            --- Erin-Lee Halstad <ehalstad@...> wrote:
            > Does this look as false to you as it does to me?
            > (I'm not a herald, but I
            > am pretty sure that Russians didn't really do
            > heraldry.)
            >
            > >
            >
            http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1482705254
            > >
            >
            > Yours,
            > Voevoda Nadezhda Toranova
            >
            >


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          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 11/7/2001 9:24:55 PM Central Standard Time, ... No, not in period, and especially not in any SCA-recognizable form (not I didn t even say
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 7, 2001
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              In a message dated 11/7/2001 9:24:55 PM Central Standard Time,
              stasiwa@... writes:


              > Maybe they did do things like
              > Principalities.

              No, not in period, and especially not in any SCA-recognizable form (not I
              didn't even say registerable). There were heraldic-like things going, but not
              actual formal heraldry that we could use.

              > Can anyone who has been to Russia shed some light? I
              > found that 16th century and on in Slovakia defiantely
              >

              So did Poland in period. But not Russia. And a 16-C. portrait of Ivan IV with
              a heraldic-looking image of St George does not qualify as heraldry. Just a
              heraldic-like thingie on a portrait.

              No, unfortunately for our game, there is no period Russian heraldry in
              recognizable or usable form.

              Predslava.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jeff Smith
              ... In a message dated 11/7/2001 9:31:16 AM Central Standard Time, janos@j-smith.net writes: ... Just completely
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 7, 2001
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                --- MHoll@... wrote:

                <HR>
                <html><body>
                <tt>
                In a message dated 11/7/2001 9:31:16 AM Central
                Standard Time, <BR>
                janos@... writes:<BR>
                <BR>
                <BR>
                > There is/was Russian heraldry.� <BR>
                <BR>
                Just completely OOP.<BR>
                <BR>
                Predslava.<BR>

                I guess it depends on how strictly you define Russian.

                Since this book is about Russian principalities, it
                would seem to include most of what is now Russia, plus
                Belarus.

                Go to
                http://jurix.jura.uni-sb.de/~serko/history/pahonia.html
                to see European style heraldry on a seal from 1407 and
                two others from 16th century chronicles.

                Janos

                =====
                JEFFREY C. SMITH
                Heidelberg, Germany

                "There are no useful suggestions to be found in 'give peace a chance' when the other side has dedicated itself to a bloody holy war against American men, women and children.
                Now, if someone wants to write a song that goes something like: 'All we are saying is give a sustained aerial bombing with coordinated ground assaults a chance' that might be helpful." -- Jonah Goldberg

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Find a job, post your resume.
                http://careers.yahoo.com
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