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Re: [sig] Kniaz: King or Prince?

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  • Sonny Cline
    Hello E D, I would like permission to re-post your email in full minus of course the first paragraph : I ll retract the Pict-Scythian theory connection. I
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 7, 2001
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      Hello E D,
      I would like permission to re-post your email in full minus of course the
      first paragraph :

      "I'll retract the Pict-Scythian theory connection. I read on a site that
      the Romans said that the Picts resembled people in the Iberian Peninsula."
      I can either leave or take out you email address; your decision.
      I would like to re-post it as information to another yahoo.groups:

      Crimea_Cities ยท Simferopol_Sevastopol_Yalta_Crimea
      A point of contact group for those interested in the Krymska Oblast in the
      Ukraine. I have listed the more major cities of Simferopol; Sevastopol;
      Yalta only because these are the most visited cities in the Krymska Oblast
      but there are many other smaller cities of interest in the area as well.
      Strictly speaking it addresses Kyiv but I believe any accurate knowledge
      regarding Kyiv or any thing factual about the Ukraine needs to be seen by as
      many as possible.
      Sincerely,
      William R Cline Jr..
      (Sonny Cline)
      Southern Indiana
      -----Original Message-----
      From: E D <White_Croat@...>
      Subject: [sig] Kniaz: King or Prince?


      " I'll retract the Pict-Scythian theory connnection. I read on a site that
      the Romans said that the Picts resembled people in the Iberian Peninsula.

      KNIAZ: KING OR PRINCE? "
    • Jeff Smith
      Hey there! ... [lotta snipping here] ... [totally irrelevent...grand prince is not a prince] ... [also irrelevent, grand prince is not a king either] Paul put
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 8, 2001
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        Hey there!

        --- E D <White_Croat@...> wrote:

        > KNIAZ: KING OR PRINCE?

        [lotta snipping here]

        > DEFINITION OF PRINCE

        [totally irrelevent...grand prince is not a prince]

        > DEFINITION OF KING

        [also irrelevent, grand prince is not a king either]

        Paul put it best...you can't compare, but if you
        really want to, find out what a "GRAND PRINCE" is.

        Emperor, King, Grand Prince, and Grand Duke are unique
        titles, as they cannot be held by someone who does not
        actually own the land. (Example, when the Grand Duchy
        of Baden, near my home, was dissolved, the man who
        would have been Grand Duke became a Count; the man who
        would have been King of Wuerttemberg, also nearby,
        became a Duke.) These are very high titles, not to be
        confused with Prince and Duke, which are subordinate
        titles (usually) and which titles can be used without
        ownership of the land associated with them. Grand
        Princes and Dukes are called "royal highness",
        implying, well, "royalness".

        A website I found lists these titles:
        tsar - Emperor
        tsaritsa - Empress
        velikii kniaz - Grand Duke
        velikaia kniaginia - Grand Duchess
        kniaz (Prince) - kniaz
        graf (Count) - graf
        kniaz (Duke) - kniaz
        baron - baron
        (http://libweb.princeton.edu/katmandu/sgman/noble.html)

        Note that they translate kniaz as 'prince' in one
        place and as a 'duke' somewhere else.

        Grand Prince is usually used for Russians, and Grand
        Duke for Germans and Italians, as a convention.

        Like Paul, I think it would be unwise to fret over a
        translation. They are always somewhat haphazard, and
        seldom translate directly.

        Janos

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      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/8/2001 4:40:45 PM Central Daylight Time, ... First, I am not contesting what Janos said, and I fully agree with Paul. The issue of the
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 8, 2001
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          In a message dated 10/8/2001 4:40:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
          janos@... writes:


          > Emperor, King, Grand Prince, and Grand Duke are unique
          > titles, as they cannot be held by someone who does not
          > actually own the land.

          First, I am not contesting what Janos said, and I fully agree with Paul. The
          issue of the meaning of "kniaz" was not stated properly. There is one more
          reason why: the meaning of the word (and power/authority associated with it)
          varied quite a bit over time (imperial titles, which is what Janos was
          quoting, have nothing to do with medieval titles).

          Just a little comment: as for land *ownership*, it's more complicated than
          that. In medieval Russia, before and during the Mongol era, kniaz'ia (plural
          of kniaz) ruled over certain lands, owned some in their own (personal) right,
          and ordinary Russians could also own lands, free of the kniaz's authority,
          except for taxes, military defense, judicial authority, etc -- pretty much
          the modern concept of ownership.

          The kniaz'ia could move from one land to another, fight over rulership of
          this or that land (some lands had more prestige, and therefore their rulers
          had more authority), levy taxes (as set by law), etc. So technically, what
          made a kniaz a kniaz was 1) inheritance (it's a patrilinear title), 2)
          rulership (but not ownership) or a land, 3) how good they were at keeping 1)
          (staying alive) and 2) (not being overrun by neighbors).

          The best explanation of the system I've read is by Janet Martin, _Medieval
          Russia_. I recommend the book, even though it's a bit of a dry read; it is,
          after all, a textbook.


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          Per fess embattled azure and gules, two otters passant or.
          <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html">Russian History Trivia Page</A>
          (http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html)


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