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Re: [sig] Kniaz: King or Prince?

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  • Sonny Cline
    Hello E D, I would like permission to re-post your email in full minus of course the first paragraph : I ll retract the Pict-Scythian theory connection. I
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 7, 2001
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      Hello E D,
      I would like permission to re-post your email in full minus of course the
      first paragraph :

      "I'll retract the Pict-Scythian theory connection. I read on a site that
      the Romans said that the Picts resembled people in the Iberian Peninsula."
      I can either leave or take out you email address; your decision.
      I would like to re-post it as information to another yahoo.groups:

      Crimea_Cities ยท Simferopol_Sevastopol_Yalta_Crimea
      A point of contact group for those interested in the Krymska Oblast in the
      Ukraine. I have listed the more major cities of Simferopol; Sevastopol;
      Yalta only because these are the most visited cities in the Krymska Oblast
      but there are many other smaller cities of interest in the area as well.
      Strictly speaking it addresses Kyiv but I believe any accurate knowledge
      regarding Kyiv or any thing factual about the Ukraine needs to be seen by as
      many as possible.
      Sincerely,
      William R Cline Jr..
      (Sonny Cline)
      Southern Indiana
      -----Original Message-----
      From: E D <White_Croat@...>
      Subject: [sig] Kniaz: King or Prince?


      " I'll retract the Pict-Scythian theory connnection. I read on a site that
      the Romans said that the Picts resembled people in the Iberian Peninsula.

      KNIAZ: KING OR PRINCE? "
    • Jenn/Yana
      One more thought: Why do you suppose that Machiavelli called his famous book on leadership, The Prince ( Il Principe in its original title)? He certainly
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 7, 2001
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        One more thought:

        Why do you suppose that Machiavelli called his famous book on leadership,
        "The Prince" ("Il Principe" in its
        original title)? He certainly was not writing a book of advice for people
        who were second to
        their thrones, even though there were Kingdoms in Italy at his time as well
        (and their rulers were called
        "king" [re]).

        -- Paul

        At 10:24 AM 10/7/2001, you wrote:
        >KNIAZ: KING OR PRINCE?
        >
        >IN THE HISTORICAL PERIOD of 860-1240 A.D. the ruler of state of Rus, with
        >its capital of Kiev, was called Kniaz. In Western Ukraine the ruler of the
        >Halych-Volyn state was called Korol. Some writers consider Korol as King but
        >Kniaz as the lesser title, Prince. Many historians in the Western world
        >writing about the history of Rus, Ukraine and Russia have been faced with
        >the problem of what title should be used for the ruler of Kievan
        >Rus(pronounced ruce).
      • Jeff Smith
        Hey there! ... [lotta snipping here] ... [totally irrelevent...grand prince is not a prince] ... [also irrelevent, grand prince is not a king either] Paul put
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 8, 2001
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          Hey there!

          --- E D <White_Croat@...> wrote:

          > KNIAZ: KING OR PRINCE?

          [lotta snipping here]

          > DEFINITION OF PRINCE

          [totally irrelevent...grand prince is not a prince]

          > DEFINITION OF KING

          [also irrelevent, grand prince is not a king either]

          Paul put it best...you can't compare, but if you
          really want to, find out what a "GRAND PRINCE" is.

          Emperor, King, Grand Prince, and Grand Duke are unique
          titles, as they cannot be held by someone who does not
          actually own the land. (Example, when the Grand Duchy
          of Baden, near my home, was dissolved, the man who
          would have been Grand Duke became a Count; the man who
          would have been King of Wuerttemberg, also nearby,
          became a Duke.) These are very high titles, not to be
          confused with Prince and Duke, which are subordinate
          titles (usually) and which titles can be used without
          ownership of the land associated with them. Grand
          Princes and Dukes are called "royal highness",
          implying, well, "royalness".

          A website I found lists these titles:
          tsar - Emperor
          tsaritsa - Empress
          velikii kniaz - Grand Duke
          velikaia kniaginia - Grand Duchess
          kniaz (Prince) - kniaz
          graf (Count) - graf
          kniaz (Duke) - kniaz
          baron - baron
          (http://libweb.princeton.edu/katmandu/sgman/noble.html)

          Note that they translate kniaz as 'prince' in one
          place and as a 'duke' somewhere else.

          Grand Prince is usually used for Russians, and Grand
          Duke for Germans and Italians, as a convention.

          Like Paul, I think it would be unwise to fret over a
          translation. They are always somewhat haphazard, and
          seldom translate directly.

          Janos

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        • MHoll@aol.com
          In a message dated 10/8/2001 4:40:45 PM Central Daylight Time, ... First, I am not contesting what Janos said, and I fully agree with Paul. The issue of the
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 8, 2001
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            In a message dated 10/8/2001 4:40:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
            janos@... writes:


            > Emperor, King, Grand Prince, and Grand Duke are unique
            > titles, as they cannot be held by someone who does not
            > actually own the land.

            First, I am not contesting what Janos said, and I fully agree with Paul. The
            issue of the meaning of "kniaz" was not stated properly. There is one more
            reason why: the meaning of the word (and power/authority associated with it)
            varied quite a bit over time (imperial titles, which is what Janos was
            quoting, have nothing to do with medieval titles).

            Just a little comment: as for land *ownership*, it's more complicated than
            that. In medieval Russia, before and during the Mongol era, kniaz'ia (plural
            of kniaz) ruled over certain lands, owned some in their own (personal) right,
            and ordinary Russians could also own lands, free of the kniaz's authority,
            except for taxes, military defense, judicial authority, etc -- pretty much
            the modern concept of ownership.

            The kniaz'ia could move from one land to another, fight over rulership of
            this or that land (some lands had more prestige, and therefore their rulers
            had more authority), levy taxes (as set by law), etc. So technically, what
            made a kniaz a kniaz was 1) inheritance (it's a patrilinear title), 2)
            rulership (but not ownership) or a land, 3) how good they were at keeping 1)
            (staying alive) and 2) (not being overrun by neighbors).

            The best explanation of the system I've read is by Janet Martin, _Medieval
            Russia_. I recommend the book, even though it's a bit of a dry read; it is,
            after all, a textbook.


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            Per fess embattled azure and gules, two otters passant or.
            <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html">Russian History Trivia Page</A>
            (http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html)


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