Re: On Period Polish Costume
- For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an
earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles
dominated in the court for male and female styles. Yet in her book
on Polish national dress she does make the strong point that in the
17th C. there was indeed a completely distinct form of Polish
clothing which owed its existence partially to a political desire to
be visually distinct. This was achieved, and at least one time in
the 17th C. when the xenophobic call came to kill everyone in western
cloths, the mob knew exactly what that meant and thousands in fact
were killed who were not wearing zupans etc. .
Polish men's cloths is (to me) extremely distinctive, but
I have to say that my eyes have a hard time distinguishing the
details of Polish female 17th C costumes. One can say that Polish
national female costume did not use certain details like farthingales
and ruffs. One can talk about letniks (one-piece pullover gowns) with
ksztalts (decorative corsets) kitliks (jacket), mentliks (over
garments)... but to me, they are all just long dresses and stuff. I
am sure, however, that to people of the time, a hundred and one
details and gross features would have been dead giveaways that set
the time and place and social status exactly of each fashion.
Just like Austrians of the time could not tell Poles from Hungarians
from Turks (but they had no difficulty telling themselves apart!).
Just like people of today can't perceive the differences: for example
ren-fair and SCA 'doublets' are almost never really doublets at all,
but soft vests that might have a general outline of a historic
doublet but have none of the construction features and so a really
quite different look.
Jenne Heise: The Turenu book on national dress (available in Polish
only) does link the female fashion terminology to pictures (not great
pictures though), but my Polish reading is weak enough to make that
technical translation a big project for me, but one I hope to tackle
soon. Some of the words are in
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PoleCostume.htm and some of the
pictures are in
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm, but they
are not connected yet.
--- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
> If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political
> fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish
> was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of
> and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
> European courts.
> Art Plazewski.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
> To: sig@y...
> Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume
> > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore
> > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and
> > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
> > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this,
> > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
> > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught
> > in western clothes.
> The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the
> era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to
> Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western'
> women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine
> Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@m...
> disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
> "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
> to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
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