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Re: On Period Polish Costume

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  • Rick Orli
    For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles dominated in the court
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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      For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an
      earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles
      dominated in the court for male and female styles. Yet in her book
      on Polish national dress she does make the strong point that in the
      17th C. there was indeed a completely distinct form of Polish
      clothing which owed its existence partially to a political desire to
      be visually distinct. This was achieved, and at least one time in
      the 17th C. when the xenophobic call came to kill everyone in western
      cloths, the mob knew exactly what that meant and thousands in fact
      were killed who were not wearing zupans etc. .

      Polish men's cloths is (to me) extremely distinctive, but
      I have to say that my eyes have a hard time distinguishing the
      details of Polish female 17th C costumes. One can say that Polish
      national female costume did not use certain details like farthingales
      and ruffs. One can talk about letniks (one-piece pullover gowns) with
      ksztalts (decorative corsets) kitliks (jacket), mentliks (over
      garments)... but to me, they are all just long dresses and stuff. I
      am sure, however, that to people of the time, a hundred and one
      details and gross features would have been dead giveaways that set
      the time and place and social status exactly of each fashion.

      Just like Austrians of the time could not tell Poles from Hungarians
      from Turks (but they had no difficulty telling themselves apart!).

      Just like people of today can't perceive the differences: for example
      ren-fair and SCA 'doublets' are almost never really doublets at all,
      but soft vests that might have a general outline of a historic
      doublet but have none of the construction features and so a really
      quite different look.

      Jenne Heise: The Turenu book on national dress (available in Polish
      only) does link the female fashion terminology to pictures (not great
      pictures though), but my Polish reading is weak enough to make that
      technical translation a big project for me, but one I hope to tackle
      soon. Some of the words are in
      http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PoleCostume.htm and some of the
      pictures are in
      http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm, but they
      are not connected yet.

      Sincerely,
      Rick Orli

      --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
      > If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political
      bs
      > fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish
      dress
      > was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of
      Italian
      > and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
      > European courts.
      >
      > Sincerely
      > Art Plazewski.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@m...]
      > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
      > To: sig@y...
      > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume
      >
      > > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore
      western
      > > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and
      northern
      > > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
      > > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this,
      and
      > > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
      > > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught
      dead
      > > in western clothes.
      >
      > The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the
      Jagiellonian
      > era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to
      western
      > clothes.
      >
      > Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western'
      clothing
      > for
      > women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine
      dress
      > on
      > Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.
      >
      >
      > --
      > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@m...
      > disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
      > "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
      > to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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