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Re: On Period Polish Costume

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  • landolf@deseretmail.com
    On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife s opinion, based on her observations
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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      On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
      to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
      on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
      Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
      century.
      Landolf

      --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
      > Greetings,
      >
      > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
      > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
      > earlier, nothing at all out there.
      > Please advise.
      >
      > Antoinette
      > M. Pruskowski
    • Shubelka, Mark
      Don t forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels- especially Casimir the
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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        Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
        designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
        especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
        One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
        Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
        well.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
        Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


        On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
        to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
        on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
        Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
        century.
        Landolf

        --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
        > Greetings,
        >
        > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
        > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
        > earlier, nothing at all out there.
        > Please advise.
        >
        > Antoinette
        > M. Pruskowski


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Megan Summers
        ... Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on women s
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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          > One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
          > Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
          > well.
          >

          Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period
          Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on
          women's fashions, I would love another source. Finding sources for women's
          garb is such a pain!

          Lady Cecilia Kadzierzawa
        • Rick Orli
          According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern areas) were
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 25, 2001
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            According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
            fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
            areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
            courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
            the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
            stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
            in western clothes.

            A disproportionate number of paintings were no doubt made of ladies
            of the court. But, if the intent is to recreate Polish court garb of
            the from 1580s to 1650s just look at any western fashion book.
            (However, after the patriotic revival after the deluge (1660 on) the
            court dress gradually switched back to Polish style - the last Vasa
            wore Polish dress part of the time, and Sobieski always did)
            -Rick Orli

            --- In sig@y..., landolf@d... wrote:
            > On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
            > to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion,
            based
            > on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of
            Western
            > Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
            > century.
            > Landolf
            >
            > --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
            > > Greetings,
            > >
            > > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I
            have
            > > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650
            and
            > > earlier, nothing at all out there.
            > > Please advise.
            > >
            > > Antoinette
            > > M. Pruskowski
          • Jenne Heise
            ... The Turnau book I have doesn t give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western clothes.
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 26, 2001
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              > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
              > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
              > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
              > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
              > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
              > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
              > in western clothes.

              The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
              era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
              clothes.

              Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing for
              women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress on
              Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


              --
              Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
              disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
              "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
              to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
            • Edward Downard
              Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady and I would both like to have this reference. Lord Eduard Gostomski known mundanely
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 29, 2001
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                Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady
                and I would both like to have this reference.

                Lord Eduard Gostomski
                known mundanely as...

                Edward Downard
                Digital Media Designer
                http://www.one-end.com

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Shubelka, Mark [mailto:Mark.Shubelka@...]
                Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:09 AM
                To: 'sig@yahoogroups.com'
                Subject: RE: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                well.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                century.
                Landolf

                --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                > Greetings,
                >
                > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                > Please advise.
                >
                > Antoinette
                > M. Pruskowski


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Art Plazewski
                If you stop thinking of Poland as of eastern country ( political bs fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress was no different
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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                  If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political bs
                  fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress
                  was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of Italian
                  and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                  European courts.

                  Sincerely
                  Art Plazewski.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume

                  > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                  > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                  > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                  > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                  > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                  > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                  > in western clothes.

                  The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                  era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                  clothes.

                  Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing
                  for
                  women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress
                  on
                  Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                  --
                  Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                  disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                  "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                  to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson




                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Rick Orli
                  For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles dominated in the court
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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                    For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an
                    earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles
                    dominated in the court for male and female styles. Yet in her book
                    on Polish national dress she does make the strong point that in the
                    17th C. there was indeed a completely distinct form of Polish
                    clothing which owed its existence partially to a political desire to
                    be visually distinct. This was achieved, and at least one time in
                    the 17th C. when the xenophobic call came to kill everyone in western
                    cloths, the mob knew exactly what that meant and thousands in fact
                    were killed who were not wearing zupans etc. .

                    Polish men's cloths is (to me) extremely distinctive, but
                    I have to say that my eyes have a hard time distinguishing the
                    details of Polish female 17th C costumes. One can say that Polish
                    national female costume did not use certain details like farthingales
                    and ruffs. One can talk about letniks (one-piece pullover gowns) with
                    ksztalts (decorative corsets) kitliks (jacket), mentliks (over
                    garments)... but to me, they are all just long dresses and stuff. I
                    am sure, however, that to people of the time, a hundred and one
                    details and gross features would have been dead giveaways that set
                    the time and place and social status exactly of each fashion.

                    Just like Austrians of the time could not tell Poles from Hungarians
                    from Turks (but they had no difficulty telling themselves apart!).

                    Just like people of today can't perceive the differences: for example
                    ren-fair and SCA 'doublets' are almost never really doublets at all,
                    but soft vests that might have a general outline of a historic
                    doublet but have none of the construction features and so a really
                    quite different look.

                    Jenne Heise: The Turenu book on national dress (available in Polish
                    only) does link the female fashion terminology to pictures (not great
                    pictures though), but my Polish reading is weak enough to make that
                    technical translation a big project for me, but one I hope to tackle
                    soon. Some of the words are in
                    http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PoleCostume.htm and some of the
                    pictures are in
                    http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm, but they
                    are not connected yet.

                    Sincerely,
                    Rick Orli

                    --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
                    > If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political
                    bs
                    > fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish
                    dress
                    > was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of
                    Italian
                    > and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                    > European courts.
                    >
                    > Sincerely
                    > Art Plazewski.
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@m...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                    > To: sig@y...
                    > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume
                    >
                    > > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore
                    western
                    > > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and
                    northern
                    > > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                    > > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this,
                    and
                    > > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                    > > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught
                    dead
                    > > in western clothes.
                    >
                    > The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the
                    Jagiellonian
                    > era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to
                    western
                    > clothes.
                    >
                    > Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western'
                    clothing
                    > for
                    > women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine
                    dress
                    > on
                    > Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@m...
                    > disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                    > "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                    > to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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