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Re: [sig] New Polish-Lithuanian History

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  • Jenne Heise
    ... Monday August 13, at 7 pm. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@mail.browser.net disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 22, 2001
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      > BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

      Monday August 13, at 7 pm.

      --
      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
      disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
      "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
      to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
    • landolf@deseretmail.com
      On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife s opinion, based on her observations
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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        On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
        to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
        on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
        Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
        century.
        Landolf

        --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
        > Greetings,
        >
        > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
        > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
        > earlier, nothing at all out there.
        > Please advise.
        >
        > Antoinette
        > M. Pruskowski
      • Shubelka, Mark
        Don t forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels- especially Casimir the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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          Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
          designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
          especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
          One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
          Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
          well.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
          Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


          On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
          to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
          on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
          Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
          century.
          Landolf

          --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
          > Greetings,
          >
          > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
          > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
          > earlier, nothing at all out there.
          > Please advise.
          >
          > Antoinette
          > M. Pruskowski


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Megan Summers
          ... Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on women s
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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            > One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
            > Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
            > well.
            >

            Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period
            Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on
            women's fashions, I would love another source. Finding sources for women's
            garb is such a pain!

            Lady Cecilia Kadzierzawa
          • Rick Orli
            According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern areas) were
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 25, 2001
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              According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
              fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
              areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
              courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
              the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
              stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
              in western clothes.

              A disproportionate number of paintings were no doubt made of ladies
              of the court. But, if the intent is to recreate Polish court garb of
              the from 1580s to 1650s just look at any western fashion book.
              (However, after the patriotic revival after the deluge (1660 on) the
              court dress gradually switched back to Polish style - the last Vasa
              wore Polish dress part of the time, and Sobieski always did)
              -Rick Orli

              --- In sig@y..., landolf@d... wrote:
              > On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
              > to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion,
              based
              > on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of
              Western
              > Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
              > century.
              > Landolf
              >
              > --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
              > > Greetings,
              > >
              > > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I
              have
              > > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650
              and
              > > earlier, nothing at all out there.
              > > Please advise.
              > >
              > > Antoinette
              > > M. Pruskowski
            • Jenne Heise
              ... The Turnau book I have doesn t give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western clothes.
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 26, 2001
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                > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                > in western clothes.

                The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                clothes.

                Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing for
                women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress on
                Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                --
                Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
              • Edward Downard
                Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady and I would both like to have this reference. Lord Eduard Gostomski known mundanely
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 29, 2001
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                  Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady
                  and I would both like to have this reference.

                  Lord Eduard Gostomski
                  known mundanely as...

                  Edward Downard
                  Digital Media Designer
                  http://www.one-end.com

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Shubelka, Mark [mailto:Mark.Shubelka@...]
                  Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:09 AM
                  To: 'sig@yahoogroups.com'
                  Subject: RE: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                  Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                  designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                  especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                  One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                  Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                  well.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                  Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                  On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                  to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                  on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                  Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                  century.
                  Landolf

                  --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                  > Greetings,
                  >
                  > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                  > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                  > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                  > Please advise.
                  >
                  > Antoinette
                  > M. Pruskowski


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Art Plazewski
                  If you stop thinking of Poland as of eastern country ( political bs fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress was no different
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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                    If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political bs
                    fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress
                    was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of Italian
                    and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                    European courts.

                    Sincerely
                    Art Plazewski.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume

                    > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                    > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                    > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                    > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                    > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                    > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                    > in western clothes.

                    The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                    era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                    clothes.

                    Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing
                    for
                    women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress
                    on
                    Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                    --
                    Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                    disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                    "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                    to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson




                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Rick Orli
                    For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles dominated in the court
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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                      For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an
                      earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles
                      dominated in the court for male and female styles. Yet in her book
                      on Polish national dress she does make the strong point that in the
                      17th C. there was indeed a completely distinct form of Polish
                      clothing which owed its existence partially to a political desire to
                      be visually distinct. This was achieved, and at least one time in
                      the 17th C. when the xenophobic call came to kill everyone in western
                      cloths, the mob knew exactly what that meant and thousands in fact
                      were killed who were not wearing zupans etc. .

                      Polish men's cloths is (to me) extremely distinctive, but
                      I have to say that my eyes have a hard time distinguishing the
                      details of Polish female 17th C costumes. One can say that Polish
                      national female costume did not use certain details like farthingales
                      and ruffs. One can talk about letniks (one-piece pullover gowns) with
                      ksztalts (decorative corsets) kitliks (jacket), mentliks (over
                      garments)... but to me, they are all just long dresses and stuff. I
                      am sure, however, that to people of the time, a hundred and one
                      details and gross features would have been dead giveaways that set
                      the time and place and social status exactly of each fashion.

                      Just like Austrians of the time could not tell Poles from Hungarians
                      from Turks (but they had no difficulty telling themselves apart!).

                      Just like people of today can't perceive the differences: for example
                      ren-fair and SCA 'doublets' are almost never really doublets at all,
                      but soft vests that might have a general outline of a historic
                      doublet but have none of the construction features and so a really
                      quite different look.

                      Jenne Heise: The Turenu book on national dress (available in Polish
                      only) does link the female fashion terminology to pictures (not great
                      pictures though), but my Polish reading is weak enough to make that
                      technical translation a big project for me, but one I hope to tackle
                      soon. Some of the words are in
                      http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PoleCostume.htm and some of the
                      pictures are in
                      http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm, but they
                      are not connected yet.

                      Sincerely,
                      Rick Orli

                      --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
                      > If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political
                      bs
                      > fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish
                      dress
                      > was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of
                      Italian
                      > and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                      > European courts.
                      >
                      > Sincerely
                      > Art Plazewski.
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@m...]
                      > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                      > To: sig@y...
                      > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume
                      >
                      > > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore
                      western
                      > > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and
                      northern
                      > > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                      > > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this,
                      and
                      > > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                      > > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught
                      dead
                      > > in western clothes.
                      >
                      > The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the
                      Jagiellonian
                      > era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to
                      western
                      > clothes.
                      >
                      > Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western'
                      clothing
                      > for
                      > women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine
                      dress
                      > on
                      > Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@m...
                      > disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                      > "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                      > to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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