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Re: [sig] New Polish-Lithuanian History

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  • Purple Kat
    You can always bring it to Pennsic. BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic?? Katardzyna
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 21, 2001
      You can always bring it to Pennsic. <GGGGG>

      BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

      Katardzyna

      At 7/21/2001 08:27 PM, you wrote:

      >I just received my pre-ordered copy of "The Polish-Lithuanian State,
      >1386-1795". The book is Volume IV of "A History of East Central Europe",
      >from University of Washington Press (374pp., ISBN 0-295-98093-1) The book
      >is authored by Daniel Stone and costs about US$50 (hardback only). The
      >book does not contain maps or illustrations, but the first two-thirds of
      >the book covers information pertaining to Poland-Lithuania before 1600.
      >
      >If only the book had come out in time to announce in the summer Slovo...
      >
      >--Walraven
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Jenne Heise
      ... Monday August 13, at 7 pm. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@mail.browser.net disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 22, 2001
        > BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

        Monday August 13, at 7 pm.

        --
        Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
        disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
        "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
        to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
      • landolf@deseretmail.com
        On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife s opinion, based on her observations
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
          On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
          to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
          on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
          Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
          century.
          Landolf

          --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
          > Greetings,
          >
          > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
          > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
          > earlier, nothing at all out there.
          > Please advise.
          >
          > Antoinette
          > M. Pruskowski
        • Shubelka, Mark
          Don t forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels- especially Casimir the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
            Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
            designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
            especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
            One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
            Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
            well.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
            Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


            On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
            to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
            on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
            Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
            century.
            Landolf

            --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
            > Greetings,
            >
            > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
            > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
            > earlier, nothing at all out there.
            > Please advise.
            >
            > Antoinette
            > M. Pruskowski


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Megan Summers
            ... Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on women s
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
              > One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
              > Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
              > well.
              >

              Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period
              Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on
              women's fashions, I would love another source. Finding sources for women's
              garb is such a pain!

              Lady Cecilia Kadzierzawa
            • Rick Orli
              According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern areas) were
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 25, 2001
                According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                in western clothes.

                A disproportionate number of paintings were no doubt made of ladies
                of the court. But, if the intent is to recreate Polish court garb of
                the from 1580s to 1650s just look at any western fashion book.
                (However, after the patriotic revival after the deluge (1660 on) the
                court dress gradually switched back to Polish style - the last Vasa
                wore Polish dress part of the time, and Sobieski always did)
                -Rick Orli

                --- In sig@y..., landolf@d... wrote:
                > On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                > to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion,
                based
                > on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of
                Western
                > Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                > century.
                > Landolf
                >
                > --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                > > Greetings,
                > >
                > > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I
                have
                > > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650
                and
                > > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                > > Please advise.
                > >
                > > Antoinette
                > > M. Pruskowski
              • Jenne Heise
                ... The Turnau book I have doesn t give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western clothes.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 26, 2001
                  > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                  > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                  > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                  > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                  > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                  > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                  > in western clothes.

                  The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                  era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                  clothes.

                  Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing for
                  women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress on
                  Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                  --
                  Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                  disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                  "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                  to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                • Edward Downard
                  Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady and I would both like to have this reference. Lord Eduard Gostomski known mundanely
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 29, 2001
                    Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady
                    and I would both like to have this reference.

                    Lord Eduard Gostomski
                    known mundanely as...

                    Edward Downard
                    Digital Media Designer
                    http://www.one-end.com

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Shubelka, Mark [mailto:Mark.Shubelka@...]
                    Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:09 AM
                    To: 'sig@yahoogroups.com'
                    Subject: RE: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                    Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                    designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                    especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                    One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                    Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                    well.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                    Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                    On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                    to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                    on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                    Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                    century.
                    Landolf

                    --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                    > Greetings,
                    >
                    > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                    > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                    > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                    > Please advise.
                    >
                    > Antoinette
                    > M. Pruskowski


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Art Plazewski
                    If you stop thinking of Poland as of eastern country ( political bs fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress was no different
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                      If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political bs
                      fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress
                      was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of Italian
                      and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                      European courts.

                      Sincerely
                      Art Plazewski.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume

                      > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                      > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                      > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                      > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                      > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                      > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                      > in western clothes.

                      The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                      era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                      clothes.

                      Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing
                      for
                      women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress
                      on
                      Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                      --
                      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                      disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                      "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                      to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson




                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Rick Orli
                      For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles dominated in the court
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                        For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an
                        earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles
                        dominated in the court for male and female styles. Yet in her book
                        on Polish national dress she does make the strong point that in the
                        17th C. there was indeed a completely distinct form of Polish
                        clothing which owed its existence partially to a political desire to
                        be visually distinct. This was achieved, and at least one time in
                        the 17th C. when the xenophobic call came to kill everyone in western
                        cloths, the mob knew exactly what that meant and thousands in fact
                        were killed who were not wearing zupans etc. .

                        Polish men's cloths is (to me) extremely distinctive, but
                        I have to say that my eyes have a hard time distinguishing the
                        details of Polish female 17th C costumes. One can say that Polish
                        national female costume did not use certain details like farthingales
                        and ruffs. One can talk about letniks (one-piece pullover gowns) with
                        ksztalts (decorative corsets) kitliks (jacket), mentliks (over
                        garments)... but to me, they are all just long dresses and stuff. I
                        am sure, however, that to people of the time, a hundred and one
                        details and gross features would have been dead giveaways that set
                        the time and place and social status exactly of each fashion.

                        Just like Austrians of the time could not tell Poles from Hungarians
                        from Turks (but they had no difficulty telling themselves apart!).

                        Just like people of today can't perceive the differences: for example
                        ren-fair and SCA 'doublets' are almost never really doublets at all,
                        but soft vests that might have a general outline of a historic
                        doublet but have none of the construction features and so a really
                        quite different look.

                        Jenne Heise: The Turenu book on national dress (available in Polish
                        only) does link the female fashion terminology to pictures (not great
                        pictures though), but my Polish reading is weak enough to make that
                        technical translation a big project for me, but one I hope to tackle
                        soon. Some of the words are in
                        http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PoleCostume.htm and some of the
                        pictures are in
                        http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm, but they
                        are not connected yet.

                        Sincerely,
                        Rick Orli

                        --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
                        > If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political
                        bs
                        > fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish
                        dress
                        > was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of
                        Italian
                        > and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                        > European courts.
                        >
                        > Sincerely
                        > Art Plazewski.
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@m...]
                        > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                        > To: sig@y...
                        > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume
                        >
                        > > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore
                        western
                        > > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and
                        northern
                        > > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                        > > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this,
                        and
                        > > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                        > > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught
                        dead
                        > > in western clothes.
                        >
                        > The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the
                        Jagiellonian
                        > era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to
                        western
                        > clothes.
                        >
                        > Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western'
                        clothing
                        > for
                        > women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine
                        dress
                        > on
                        > Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@m...
                        > disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                        > "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                        > to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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