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Re: On Period Polish Costume

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  • orlirva@yahoo.com
    Look at our costume and patterns and costume essay web page under http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm We don t have much for females yet,
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 19, 2001
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      Look at our costume and patterns and costume essay web page under
      http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm
      We don't have much for females yet, but in a few days I will put out
      some additional images of upper-class female costume.

      --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
      > Greetings,
      >
      > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
      > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
      > earlier, nothing at all out there.
      > Please advise.
      >
      > Antoinette
      > M. Pruskowski
    • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
      I just received my pre-ordered copy of The Polish-Lithuanian State, 1386-1795 . The book is Volume IV of A History of East Central Europe , from University
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 21, 2001
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        I just received my pre-ordered copy of "The Polish-Lithuanian State,
        1386-1795". The book is Volume IV of "A History of East Central Europe",
        from University of Washington Press (374pp., ISBN 0-295-98093-1) The book
        is authored by Daniel Stone and costs about US$50 (hardback only). The
        book does not contain maps or illustrations, but the first two-thirds of
        the book covers information pertaining to Poland-Lithuania before 1600.

        If only the book had come out in time to announce in the summer Slovo...

        --Walraven
      • Purple Kat
        You can always bring it to Pennsic. BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic?? Katardzyna
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 21, 2001
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          You can always bring it to Pennsic. <GGGGG>

          BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

          Katardzyna

          At 7/21/2001 08:27 PM, you wrote:

          >I just received my pre-ordered copy of "The Polish-Lithuanian State,
          >1386-1795". The book is Volume IV of "A History of East Central Europe",
          >from University of Washington Press (374pp., ISBN 0-295-98093-1) The book
          >is authored by Daniel Stone and costs about US$50 (hardback only). The
          >book does not contain maps or illustrations, but the first two-thirds of
          >the book covers information pertaining to Poland-Lithuania before 1600.
          >
          >If only the book had come out in time to announce in the summer Slovo...
          >
          >--Walraven
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Jenne Heise
          ... Monday August 13, at 7 pm. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@mail.browser.net disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 22, 2001
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            > BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

            Monday August 13, at 7 pm.

            --
            Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
            disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
            "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
            to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
          • landolf@deseretmail.com
            On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife s opinion, based on her observations
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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              On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
              to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
              on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
              Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
              century.
              Landolf

              --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
              > Greetings,
              >
              > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
              > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
              > earlier, nothing at all out there.
              > Please advise.
              >
              > Antoinette
              > M. Pruskowski
            • Shubelka, Mark
              Don t forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels- especially Casimir the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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                Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                well.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                century.
                Landolf

                --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                > Greetings,
                >
                > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                > Please advise.
                >
                > Antoinette
                > M. Pruskowski


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Megan Summers
                ... Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on women s
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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                  > One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                  > Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                  > well.
                  >

                  Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period
                  Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on
                  women's fashions, I would love another source. Finding sources for women's
                  garb is such a pain!

                  Lady Cecilia Kadzierzawa
                • Rick Orli
                  According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern areas) were
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 25, 2001
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                    According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                    fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                    areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                    courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                    the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                    stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                    in western clothes.

                    A disproportionate number of paintings were no doubt made of ladies
                    of the court. But, if the intent is to recreate Polish court garb of
                    the from 1580s to 1650s just look at any western fashion book.
                    (However, after the patriotic revival after the deluge (1660 on) the
                    court dress gradually switched back to Polish style - the last Vasa
                    wore Polish dress part of the time, and Sobieski always did)
                    -Rick Orli

                    --- In sig@y..., landolf@d... wrote:
                    > On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                    > to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion,
                    based
                    > on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of
                    Western
                    > Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                    > century.
                    > Landolf
                    >
                    > --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                    > > Greetings,
                    > >
                    > > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I
                    have
                    > > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650
                    and
                    > > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                    > > Please advise.
                    > >
                    > > Antoinette
                    > > M. Pruskowski
                  • Jenne Heise
                    ... The Turnau book I have doesn t give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western clothes.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 26, 2001
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                      > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                      > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                      > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                      > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                      > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                      > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                      > in western clothes.

                      The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                      era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                      clothes.

                      Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing for
                      women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress on
                      Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                      --
                      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                      disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                      "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                      to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                    • Edward Downard
                      Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady and I would both like to have this reference. Lord Eduard Gostomski known mundanely
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 29, 2001
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                        Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady
                        and I would both like to have this reference.

                        Lord Eduard Gostomski
                        known mundanely as...

                        Edward Downard
                        Digital Media Designer
                        http://www.one-end.com

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Shubelka, Mark [mailto:Mark.Shubelka@...]
                        Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:09 AM
                        To: 'sig@yahoogroups.com'
                        Subject: RE: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                        Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                        designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                        especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                        One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                        Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                        well.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                        Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                        On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                        to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                        on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                        Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                        century.
                        Landolf

                        --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                        > Greetings,
                        >
                        > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                        > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                        > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                        > Please advise.
                        >
                        > Antoinette
                        > M. Pruskowski


                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Art Plazewski
                        If you stop thinking of Poland as of eastern country ( political bs fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress was no different
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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                          If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political bs
                          fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress
                          was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of Italian
                          and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                          European courts.

                          Sincerely
                          Art Plazewski.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume

                          > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                          > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                          > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                          > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                          > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                          > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                          > in western clothes.

                          The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                          era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                          clothes.

                          Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing
                          for
                          women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress
                          on
                          Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                          --
                          Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                          disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                          "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                          to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson




                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Rick Orli
                          For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles dominated in the court
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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                            For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an
                            earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles
                            dominated in the court for male and female styles. Yet in her book
                            on Polish national dress she does make the strong point that in the
                            17th C. there was indeed a completely distinct form of Polish
                            clothing which owed its existence partially to a political desire to
                            be visually distinct. This was achieved, and at least one time in
                            the 17th C. when the xenophobic call came to kill everyone in western
                            cloths, the mob knew exactly what that meant and thousands in fact
                            were killed who were not wearing zupans etc. .

                            Polish men's cloths is (to me) extremely distinctive, but
                            I have to say that my eyes have a hard time distinguishing the
                            details of Polish female 17th C costumes. One can say that Polish
                            national female costume did not use certain details like farthingales
                            and ruffs. One can talk about letniks (one-piece pullover gowns) with
                            ksztalts (decorative corsets) kitliks (jacket), mentliks (over
                            garments)... but to me, they are all just long dresses and stuff. I
                            am sure, however, that to people of the time, a hundred and one
                            details and gross features would have been dead giveaways that set
                            the time and place and social status exactly of each fashion.

                            Just like Austrians of the time could not tell Poles from Hungarians
                            from Turks (but they had no difficulty telling themselves apart!).

                            Just like people of today can't perceive the differences: for example
                            ren-fair and SCA 'doublets' are almost never really doublets at all,
                            but soft vests that might have a general outline of a historic
                            doublet but have none of the construction features and so a really
                            quite different look.

                            Jenne Heise: The Turenu book on national dress (available in Polish
                            only) does link the female fashion terminology to pictures (not great
                            pictures though), but my Polish reading is weak enough to make that
                            technical translation a big project for me, but one I hope to tackle
                            soon. Some of the words are in
                            http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PoleCostume.htm and some of the
                            pictures are in
                            http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm, but they
                            are not connected yet.

                            Sincerely,
                            Rick Orli

                            --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
                            > If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political
                            bs
                            > fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish
                            dress
                            > was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of
                            Italian
                            > and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                            > European courts.
                            >
                            > Sincerely
                            > Art Plazewski.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@m...]
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                            > To: sig@y...
                            > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume
                            >
                            > > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore
                            western
                            > > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and
                            northern
                            > > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                            > > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this,
                            and
                            > > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                            > > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught
                            dead
                            > > in western clothes.
                            >
                            > The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the
                            Jagiellonian
                            > era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to
                            western
                            > clothes.
                            >
                            > Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western'
                            clothing
                            > for
                            > women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine
                            dress
                            > on
                            > Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@m...
                            > disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                            > "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                            > to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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