Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [sig] On Period Polish Costume

Expand Messages
  • Shubelka, Mark
    Greetings, well I have several links on the Polish Knowledge page: www.mv.com/ipusers/heart/POLISHPAGES.HTM
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 18, 2001
      Greetings, well I have several links on the Polish Knowledge page:

      www.mv.com/ipusers/heart/POLISHPAGES.HTM
      <http://www.mv.com/ipusers/heart/POLISHPAGES.HTM>

      try there, I'll see what else I have in my little archive at home

      -----Original Message-----
      From: delacroi29@... [mailto:delacroi29@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 10:55 AM
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [sig] On Period Polish Costume


      Greetings,

      I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
      been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
      earlier, nothing at all out there.
      Please advise.

      Antoinette
      M. Pruskowski


      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • orlirva@yahoo.com
      Look at our costume and patterns and costume essay web page under http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm We don t have much for females yet,
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 19, 2001
        Look at our costume and patterns and costume essay web page under
        http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm
        We don't have much for females yet, but in a few days I will put out
        some additional images of upper-class female costume.

        --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
        > Greetings,
        >
        > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
        > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
        > earlier, nothing at all out there.
        > Please advise.
        >
        > Antoinette
        > M. Pruskowski
      • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
        I just received my pre-ordered copy of The Polish-Lithuanian State, 1386-1795 . The book is Volume IV of A History of East Central Europe , from University
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 21, 2001
          I just received my pre-ordered copy of "The Polish-Lithuanian State,
          1386-1795". The book is Volume IV of "A History of East Central Europe",
          from University of Washington Press (374pp., ISBN 0-295-98093-1) The book
          is authored by Daniel Stone and costs about US$50 (hardback only). The
          book does not contain maps or illustrations, but the first two-thirds of
          the book covers information pertaining to Poland-Lithuania before 1600.

          If only the book had come out in time to announce in the summer Slovo...

          --Walraven
        • Purple Kat
          You can always bring it to Pennsic. BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic?? Katardzyna
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 21, 2001
            You can always bring it to Pennsic. <GGGGG>

            BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

            Katardzyna

            At 7/21/2001 08:27 PM, you wrote:

            >I just received my pre-ordered copy of "The Polish-Lithuanian State,
            >1386-1795". The book is Volume IV of "A History of East Central Europe",
            >from University of Washington Press (374pp., ISBN 0-295-98093-1) The book
            >is authored by Daniel Stone and costs about US$50 (hardback only). The
            >book does not contain maps or illustrations, but the first two-thirds of
            >the book covers information pertaining to Poland-Lithuania before 1600.
            >
            >If only the book had come out in time to announce in the summer Slovo...
            >
            >--Walraven
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Jenne Heise
            ... Monday August 13, at 7 pm. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@mail.browser.net disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 22, 2001
              > BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

              Monday August 13, at 7 pm.

              --
              Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
              disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
              "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
              to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
            • landolf@deseretmail.com
              On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife s opinion, based on her observations
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
                On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                century.
                Landolf

                --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                > Greetings,
                >
                > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                > Please advise.
                >
                > Antoinette
                > M. Pruskowski
              • Shubelka, Mark
                Don t forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels- especially Casimir the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
                  Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                  designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                  especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                  One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                  Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                  well.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                  Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                  On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                  to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                  on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                  Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                  century.
                  Landolf

                  --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                  > Greetings,
                  >
                  > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                  > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                  > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                  > Please advise.
                  >
                  > Antoinette
                  > M. Pruskowski


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Megan Summers
                  ... Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on women s
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
                    > One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                    > Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                    > well.
                    >

                    Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period
                    Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on
                    women's fashions, I would love another source. Finding sources for women's
                    garb is such a pain!

                    Lady Cecilia Kadzierzawa
                  • Rick Orli
                    According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern areas) were
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 25, 2001
                      According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                      fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                      areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                      courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                      the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                      stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                      in western clothes.

                      A disproportionate number of paintings were no doubt made of ladies
                      of the court. But, if the intent is to recreate Polish court garb of
                      the from 1580s to 1650s just look at any western fashion book.
                      (However, after the patriotic revival after the deluge (1660 on) the
                      court dress gradually switched back to Polish style - the last Vasa
                      wore Polish dress part of the time, and Sobieski always did)
                      -Rick Orli

                      --- In sig@y..., landolf@d... wrote:
                      > On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                      > to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion,
                      based
                      > on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of
                      Western
                      > Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                      > century.
                      > Landolf
                      >
                      > --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                      > > Greetings,
                      > >
                      > > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I
                      have
                      > > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650
                      and
                      > > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                      > > Please advise.
                      > >
                      > > Antoinette
                      > > M. Pruskowski
                    • Jenne Heise
                      ... The Turnau book I have doesn t give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western clothes.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 26, 2001
                        > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                        > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                        > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                        > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                        > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                        > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                        > in western clothes.

                        The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                        era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                        clothes.

                        Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing for
                        women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress on
                        Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                        --
                        Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                        disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                        "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                        to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                      • Edward Downard
                        Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady and I would both like to have this reference. Lord Eduard Gostomski known mundanely
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 29, 2001
                          Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady
                          and I would both like to have this reference.

                          Lord Eduard Gostomski
                          known mundanely as...

                          Edward Downard
                          Digital Media Designer
                          http://www.one-end.com

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Shubelka, Mark [mailto:Mark.Shubelka@...]
                          Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:09 AM
                          To: 'sig@yahoogroups.com'
                          Subject: RE: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                          Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                          designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                          especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                          One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                          Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                          well.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                          Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                          On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                          to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                          on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                          Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                          century.
                          Landolf

                          --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                          > Greetings,
                          >
                          > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                          > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                          > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                          > Please advise.
                          >
                          > Antoinette
                          > M. Pruskowski


                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Art Plazewski
                          If you stop thinking of Poland as of eastern country ( political bs fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress was no different
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                            If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political bs
                            fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress
                            was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of Italian
                            and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                            European courts.

                            Sincerely
                            Art Plazewski.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume

                            > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                            > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                            > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                            > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                            > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                            > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                            > in western clothes.

                            The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                            era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                            clothes.

                            Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing
                            for
                            women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress
                            on
                            Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                            --
                            Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                            disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                            "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                            to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson




                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • Rick Orli
                            For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles dominated in the court
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
                              For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an
                              earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles
                              dominated in the court for male and female styles. Yet in her book
                              on Polish national dress she does make the strong point that in the
                              17th C. there was indeed a completely distinct form of Polish
                              clothing which owed its existence partially to a political desire to
                              be visually distinct. This was achieved, and at least one time in
                              the 17th C. when the xenophobic call came to kill everyone in western
                              cloths, the mob knew exactly what that meant and thousands in fact
                              were killed who were not wearing zupans etc. .

                              Polish men's cloths is (to me) extremely distinctive, but
                              I have to say that my eyes have a hard time distinguishing the
                              details of Polish female 17th C costumes. One can say that Polish
                              national female costume did not use certain details like farthingales
                              and ruffs. One can talk about letniks (one-piece pullover gowns) with
                              ksztalts (decorative corsets) kitliks (jacket), mentliks (over
                              garments)... but to me, they are all just long dresses and stuff. I
                              am sure, however, that to people of the time, a hundred and one
                              details and gross features would have been dead giveaways that set
                              the time and place and social status exactly of each fashion.

                              Just like Austrians of the time could not tell Poles from Hungarians
                              from Turks (but they had no difficulty telling themselves apart!).

                              Just like people of today can't perceive the differences: for example
                              ren-fair and SCA 'doublets' are almost never really doublets at all,
                              but soft vests that might have a general outline of a historic
                              doublet but have none of the construction features and so a really
                              quite different look.

                              Jenne Heise: The Turenu book on national dress (available in Polish
                              only) does link the female fashion terminology to pictures (not great
                              pictures though), but my Polish reading is weak enough to make that
                              technical translation a big project for me, but one I hope to tackle
                              soon. Some of the words are in
                              http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PoleCostume.htm and some of the
                              pictures are in
                              http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm, but they
                              are not connected yet.

                              Sincerely,
                              Rick Orli

                              --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
                              > If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political
                              bs
                              > fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish
                              dress
                              > was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of
                              Italian
                              > and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                              > European courts.
                              >
                              > Sincerely
                              > Art Plazewski.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@m...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                              > To: sig@y...
                              > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume
                              >
                              > > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore
                              western
                              > > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and
                              northern
                              > > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                              > > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this,
                              and
                              > > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                              > > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught
                              dead
                              > > in western clothes.
                              >
                              > The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the
                              Jagiellonian
                              > era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to
                              western
                              > clothes.
                              >
                              > Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western'
                              clothing
                              > for
                              > women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine
                              dress
                              > on
                              > Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@m...
                              > disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                              > "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                              > to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.