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On Period Polish Costume

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  • delacroi29@yahoo.com
    Greetings, I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and earlier,
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 17, 2001
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      Greetings,

      I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
      been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
      earlier, nothing at all out there.
      Please advise.

      Antoinette
      M. Pruskowski
    • Shubelka, Mark
      Greetings, well I have several links on the Polish Knowledge page: www.mv.com/ipusers/heart/POLISHPAGES.HTM
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 18, 2001
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        Greetings, well I have several links on the Polish Knowledge page:

        www.mv.com/ipusers/heart/POLISHPAGES.HTM
        <http://www.mv.com/ipusers/heart/POLISHPAGES.HTM>

        try there, I'll see what else I have in my little archive at home

        -----Original Message-----
        From: delacroi29@... [mailto:delacroi29@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 10:55 AM
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [sig] On Period Polish Costume


        Greetings,

        I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
        been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
        earlier, nothing at all out there.
        Please advise.

        Antoinette
        M. Pruskowski


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • orlirva@yahoo.com
        Look at our costume and patterns and costume essay web page under http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm We don t have much for females yet,
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 19, 2001
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          Look at our costume and patterns and costume essay web page under
          http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolishHorseArtillery.htm
          We don't have much for females yet, but in a few days I will put out
          some additional images of upper-class female costume.

          --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
          > Greetings,
          >
          > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
          > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
          > earlier, nothing at all out there.
          > Please advise.
          >
          > Antoinette
          > M. Pruskowski
        • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
          I just received my pre-ordered copy of The Polish-Lithuanian State, 1386-1795 . The book is Volume IV of A History of East Central Europe , from University
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 21, 2001
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            I just received my pre-ordered copy of "The Polish-Lithuanian State,
            1386-1795". The book is Volume IV of "A History of East Central Europe",
            from University of Washington Press (374pp., ISBN 0-295-98093-1) The book
            is authored by Daniel Stone and costs about US$50 (hardback only). The
            book does not contain maps or illustrations, but the first two-thirds of
            the book covers information pertaining to Poland-Lithuania before 1600.

            If only the book had come out in time to announce in the summer Slovo...

            --Walraven
          • Purple Kat
            You can always bring it to Pennsic. BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic?? Katardzyna
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 21, 2001
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              You can always bring it to Pennsic. <GGGGG>

              BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

              Katardzyna

              At 7/21/2001 08:27 PM, you wrote:

              >I just received my pre-ordered copy of "The Polish-Lithuanian State,
              >1386-1795". The book is Volume IV of "A History of East Central Europe",
              >from University of Washington Press (374pp., ISBN 0-295-98093-1) The book
              >is authored by Daniel Stone and costs about US$50 (hardback only). The
              >book does not contain maps or illustrations, but the first two-thirds of
              >the book covers information pertaining to Poland-Lithuania before 1600.
              >
              >If only the book had come out in time to announce in the summer Slovo...
              >
              >--Walraven
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Jenne Heise
              ... Monday August 13, at 7 pm. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@mail.browser.net disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 22, 2001
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                > BTW UI forgot -- when is the SIG meeting at Pennsic??

                Monday August 13, at 7 pm.

                --
                Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
              • landolf@deseretmail.com
                On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife s opinion, based on her observations
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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                  On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                  to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                  on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                  Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                  century.
                  Landolf

                  --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                  > Greetings,
                  >
                  > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                  > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                  > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                  > Please advise.
                  >
                  > Antoinette
                  > M. Pruskowski
                • Shubelka, Mark
                  Don t forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels- especially Casimir the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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                    Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                    designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                    especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                    One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                    Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                    well.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                    Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                    On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                    to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                    on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                    Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                    century.
                    Landolf

                    --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                    > Greetings,
                    >
                    > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                    > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                    > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                    > Please advise.
                    >
                    > Antoinette
                    > M. Pruskowski


                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Megan Summers
                    ... Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on women s
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 23, 2001
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                      > One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                      > Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                      > well.
                      >

                      Can you give us the book info for this? My lord and I both do late period
                      Polish and, while my research has shown western European influence on
                      women's fashions, I would love another source. Finding sources for women's
                      garb is such a pain!

                      Lady Cecilia Kadzierzawa
                    • Rick Orli
                      According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern areas) were
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 25, 2001
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                        According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                        fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                        areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                        courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                        the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                        stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                        in western clothes.

                        A disproportionate number of paintings were no doubt made of ladies
                        of the court. But, if the intent is to recreate Polish court garb of
                        the from 1580s to 1650s just look at any western fashion book.
                        (However, after the patriotic revival after the deluge (1660 on) the
                        court dress gradually switched back to Polish style - the last Vasa
                        wore Polish dress part of the time, and Sobieski always did)
                        -Rick Orli

                        --- In sig@y..., landolf@d... wrote:
                        > On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                        > to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion,
                        based
                        > on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of
                        Western
                        > Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                        > century.
                        > Landolf
                        >
                        > --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                        > > Greetings,
                        > >
                        > > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I
                        have
                        > > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650
                        and
                        > > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                        > > Please advise.
                        > >
                        > > Antoinette
                        > > M. Pruskowski
                      • Jenne Heise
                        ... The Turnau book I have doesn t give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western clothes.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 26, 2001
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                          > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                          > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                          > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                          > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                          > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                          > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                          > in western clothes.

                          The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                          era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                          clothes.

                          Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing for
                          women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress on
                          Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                          --
                          Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                          disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                          "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                          to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                        • Edward Downard
                          Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady and I would both like to have this reference. Lord Eduard Gostomski known mundanely
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 29, 2001
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                            Wow. can you tell us the name of this book you are referring too? My lady
                            and I would both like to have this reference.

                            Lord Eduard Gostomski
                            known mundanely as...

                            Edward Downard
                            Digital Media Designer
                            http://www.one-end.com

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Shubelka, Mark [mailto:Mark.Shubelka@...]
                            Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:09 AM
                            To: 'sig@yahoogroups.com'
                            Subject: RE: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                            Don't forget that a lot of the Polish Dress was influenced by Italian
                            designs as well (due to the interaction with italy on many levels-
                            especially Casimir the Great when he created the Universities of Poland)
                            One of the books I have also has what they refer to as "Polish
                            Elizabethan" so there are obviously influences from the British Isles as
                            well.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: landolf@... [mailto:landolf@...]
                            Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:41 PM
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume


                            On our visit to Poland last year, my Lady wife paid close attention
                            to the portraits of the Polish women. It is my wife's opinion, based
                            on her observations of those paintings, that the fashions of Western
                            Europe were adopted by the noble and royal women of the early 17th
                            century.
                            Landolf

                            --- In sig@y..., delacroi29@y... wrote:
                            > Greetings,
                            >
                            > I am seeking pictorial sources to create Polish court garb. I have
                            > been searching for portraits of Polish-born Queens, circa 1650 and
                            > earlier, nothing at all out there.
                            > Please advise.
                            >
                            > Antoinette
                            > M. Pruskowski


                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • Art Plazewski
                            If you stop thinking of Poland as of eastern country ( political bs fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress was no different
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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                              If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political bs
                              fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish dress
                              was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of Italian
                              and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                              European courts.

                              Sincerely
                              Art Plazewski.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@...]
                              Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume

                              > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore western
                              > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and northern
                              > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                              > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this, and
                              > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                              > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught dead
                              > in western clothes.

                              The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the Jagiellonian
                              era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to western
                              clothes.

                              Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western' clothing
                              for
                              women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine dress
                              on
                              Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.


                              --
                              Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                              disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                              "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                              to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson




                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Rick Orli
                              For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles dominated in the court
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 30, 2001
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                                For sure fashion had its international aspect, and as I said in an
                                earlier post, according to Turenu the German/French/Spanish styles
                                dominated in the court for male and female styles. Yet in her book
                                on Polish national dress she does make the strong point that in the
                                17th C. there was indeed a completely distinct form of Polish
                                clothing which owed its existence partially to a political desire to
                                be visually distinct. This was achieved, and at least one time in
                                the 17th C. when the xenophobic call came to kill everyone in western
                                cloths, the mob knew exactly what that meant and thousands in fact
                                were killed who were not wearing zupans etc. .

                                Polish men's cloths is (to me) extremely distinctive, but
                                I have to say that my eyes have a hard time distinguishing the
                                details of Polish female 17th C costumes. One can say that Polish
                                national female costume did not use certain details like farthingales
                                and ruffs. One can talk about letniks (one-piece pullover gowns) with
                                ksztalts (decorative corsets) kitliks (jacket), mentliks (over
                                garments)... but to me, they are all just long dresses and stuff. I
                                am sure, however, that to people of the time, a hundred and one
                                details and gross features would have been dead giveaways that set
                                the time and place and social status exactly of each fashion.

                                Just like Austrians of the time could not tell Poles from Hungarians
                                from Turks (but they had no difficulty telling themselves apart!).

                                Just like people of today can't perceive the differences: for example
                                ren-fair and SCA 'doublets' are almost never really doublets at all,
                                but soft vests that might have a general outline of a historic
                                doublet but have none of the construction features and so a really
                                quite different look.

                                Jenne Heise: The Turenu book on national dress (available in Polish
                                only) does link the female fashion terminology to pictures (not great
                                pictures though), but my Polish reading is weak enough to make that
                                technical translation a big project for me, but one I hope to tackle
                                soon. Some of the words are in
                                http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PoleCostume.htm and some of the
                                pictures are in
                                http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm, but they
                                are not connected yet.

                                Sincerely,
                                Rick Orli

                                --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
                                > If you stop thinking of Poland as of "eastern" country ( political
                                bs
                                > fed to the public for past 50 years) then you will see that polish
                                dress
                                > was no different then the rest of Europe. Design influences of
                                Italian
                                > and French courts were as strong in Poland as in the rest of the
                                > European courts.
                                >
                                > Sincerely
                                > Art Plazewski.
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@m...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 9:33 AM
                                > To: sig@y...
                                > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: On Period Polish Costume
                                >
                                > > According to Irena Turnau and others, the only women who wore
                                western
                                > > fashion in Poland (outside of German influenced western and
                                northern
                                > > areas) were associated with the court. The Vasa kings and their
                                > > courts wore western dress... many Poles took a dim view of this,
                                and
                                > > the Szlatcha (gentry, male and female) anyway generally wished to
                                > > stress their independence from the King and would not be caught
                                dead
                                > > in western clothes.
                                >
                                > The Turnau book I have doesn't give good pictures, and the
                                Jagiellonian
                                > era book I have (pre 1580) shows clothing for women similar to
                                western
                                > clothes.
                                >
                                > Does the Turnau book you have actually describe 'non-Western'
                                clothing
                                > for
                                > women at all? I have seen NO depictuions of Russian or Byzantine
                                dress
                                > on
                                > Polish women, which would be the obvious suspects.
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@m...
                                > disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                                > "It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
                                > to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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