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Livery

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  • Pomestnik Nikulai Ivanovich
    My soon to be Pelican wishes to have the household all wear her livery - can anyone give me some ideas what would have been appropriate livery for a later
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 16, 2001
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      My soon to be Pelican wishes to have the household all wear her livery - can
      anyone give me some ideas what would have been appropriate livery for a
      later period slav?

      Thanks!
      - Nikulai
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... I don t know if you d call it custom -- litiya are prayers (typically rendered into English as lity but usually called litiya in Byzantine and Slavonic
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 17, 2001
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        Gjoko Apostolov wrote:

        >
        > Hello,
        > Please, someone can give me some web adresses aboute the custom called "Litija"
        > Thanks,
        > Gjoko

        I don't know if you'd call it "custom" -- litiya are prayers (typically rendered into English as "lity" but
        usually called litiya in Byzantine and Slavonic churches).

        From "The Liturgical Dictionary of Eastern Christianity":

        ' Generally "entreaty." On the eves of great feasts, a procession with intercessions takes place at the end
        of the Litany of Fervent Intercession when the appointed troparia are being sung, during which the clergy to
        to the narthex and the church is censed while a deacon intones the litany for the people's needs. During the
        lity, bread, wine, and oil are blessed, and when in times past the all-night vigil lasted until morning,
        these offerings were distributed to the congregation to sustain them. Sometime the term "lity" refers to a
        modified Office of the Dead. '

        Effingham
      • Jenny Stewart
        My soon to be Pelican wishes to have the household all wear her livery - can anyone give me some ideas what would have been appropriate livery for a later
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 18, 2001
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          My soon to be Pelican wishes to have the household all wear her livery -
          can
          anyone give me some ideas what would have been appropriate livery for a
          later period slav?

          Livery is ANYthing in the colours of her arms - or, that is, tha\e main
          colour (red blue black green) and the main metal (yellow, white) whatever
          the background/field of her arms is of, and the other most prominent
          "color" . What you do with them is kinda irrelevant, so it works well for
          all times and places, make an outfit of your usual kind using those two
          tones. keep the tones clear and bright for best Livery effect, and
          appreciuate one of the finest ways of blending heraldry usage into all
          times & places. alternate the colours of your garments, layering the two
          shades, have each piece have trim of the other shade on it. Have fun!!
          Enna
        • Tim Nalley
          I probably wrong here, but I ve never run across heraldry for late period Russians, aside from tha used to denote large towns on the Tsar s seal. Anyone
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 18, 2001
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            I' probably wrong here, but I've never run across
            heraldry for late period Russians, aside from tha used
            to denote large towns on the Tsar's seal. Anyone
            else...?
            'dak
            --- Jenny Stewart <tbv@...> wrote:
            >
            > My soon to be Pelican wishes to have the household
            > all wear her livery -
            > can
            > anyone give me some ideas what would have been
            > appropriate livery for a
            > later period slav?
            >
            > Livery is ANYthing in the colours of her arms - or,
            > that is, tha\e main
            > colour (red blue black green) and the main metal
            > (yellow, white) whatever
            > the background/field of her arms is of, and the
            > other most prominent
            > "color" . What you do with them is kinda irrelevant,
            > so it works well for
            > all times and places, make an outfit of your usual
            > kind using those two
            > tones. keep the tones clear and bright for best
            > Livery effect, and
            > appreciuate one of the finest ways of blending
            > heraldry usage into all
            > times & places. alternate the colours of your
            > garments, layering the two
            > shades, have each piece have trim of the other shade
            > on it. Have fun!!
            > Enna
            >


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          • nikulai@mochamail.com
            Enna - thank you. I was perhaps unclear as to what I meant. She wants to make hoods and baldriks with the household badge. She understands that I am trying to
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 18, 2001
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              Enna - thank you. I was perhaps unclear as to what I meant. She wants
              to make hoods and baldriks with the household badge. She understands
              that I am trying to keep my Russian garb true to the Rus when
              possible and so suggested I determine what would have been more
              appropriate for my persona. Ive checked through the Russian knowledge
              pages and those they link to, but have been unsucessful in finding
              something. I could quite have easily missed it, however. - Nikulai
            • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
              ... There was no heraldry (coats of arms) in period Russia. I ve even found an authoritative (and very expensive) book on the history of herladry in Russia
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 18, 2001
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                On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Tim Nalley wrote:

                > I' probably wrong here, but I've never run across heraldry for late
                > period Russians, aside from tha used to denote large towns on the
                > Tsar's seal. Anyone else...?

                There was no heraldry (coats of arms) in period Russia. I've even found
                an authoritative (and very expensive) book on the history of herladry in
                Russia that laments this fact. However, the Polish began using heraldry
                by the 13th/14th century, and it spread into Lithuania with the joining of
                those two nations.

                --Walraven
              • MHoll@aol.com
                In a message dated 6/18/2001 12:57:57 PM Central Daylight Time, ... No, no heraldry in the Western sense, none at all, nothing recognizable, much less
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 18, 2001
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                  In a message dated 6/18/2001 12:57:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
                  mordakus@... writes:


                  > I' probably wrong here, but I've never run across
                  >

                  No, no heraldry in the Western sense, none at all, nothing recognizable, much
                  less registerable, byt the SCA CoA.

                  You have seals and marks, but they are usually of the "seal of Sviatoslav" or
                  "Grandma's spindle whorl" type (the last one is real).

                  No livery in Russia, either, although red and gold in profusion, gold
                  brocades, etc, would make it look pretty good.

                  I think there might be something in Poland in period, but that's outside my
                  area of expertise.

                  Predslava.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Amanda Lewanski
                  ... Correction. *SCA* livery is often the main colors from the arms. Period liveries were not necessarily, or even frequently, true heraldic colors. Either
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 18, 2001
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                    Jenny Stewart wrote:

                    > Livery is ANYthing in the colours of her arms - or, that is, tha\e
                    > main colour (red blue black green) and the main metal (yellow, white)
                    > whatever the background/field of her arms is of, and the other most
                    > prominent "color" .

                    Correction. *SCA* livery is often the main colors from the arms. Period
                    liveries were not necessarily, or even frequently, true heraldic colors.
                    Either nobody knows this, or they don't care much, since my lord's
                    livery of wine-red and dove-gray, and mine of wine-red and ermine [I
                    think; I might have gone for dove-gray too, it's been a while], are the
                    only ones that I know of in Ansteorra that are NOT the same tiresome old
                    "main arms colors." Sigh.

                    --Alisandre


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Brent Rachel
                    ... My arms are Azure and Argent.., my livery - gules, sable, and or. You don t think there s some connection between having non-arms livery and being
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 19, 2001
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                      --- Amanda Lewanski <editor@...> wrote:

                      > Either nobody knows this, or they don't care much,
                      > since my lord'slivery of wine-red and dove-gray,
                      > and mine of wine-red and ermine, are the
                      > only ones that I know of in Ansteorra that are NOT
                      > the same tiresome old "main arms colors." Sigh.
                      >
                      > --Alisandre

                      My arms are Azure and Argent.., my livery - gules,
                      sable, and or.

                      You don't think there's some connection between having
                      non-arms livery and being incative, do you? Scary.

                      To the original asker of the question about livery: I
                      strongly advocate the already published suggestion
                      that you make Russian garb in her livery colors. You
                      will fit into your Pelican's palate, you'll have garb
                      you can wear later, and you will preserve your own
                      persona's style.

                      If that doesn't work, perhaps you could wear a sash of
                      your Pelican's livery color, or a livery-colored scarf
                      tied prominently to you arm.., perhaps with the
                      Pelican's badge on it.

                      I know that livery and heraldry were not in
                      common/organized use in Russia.., but hey.., you live
                      HERE now.., so you are entitled. In these kinds of
                      cases, I like to ask myself not "what was not done in
                      my home land/time?".., but, rather "what someone from
                      my home land/time would dream up to meet the protocol
                      challenge of the new land in which he now lives?"

                      If you'd moved from Russia to.., I dunno.., say..,
                      Burgundy in the 15th C., you would certainly have
                      jetisoned layers from your normal attire, probably
                      switched to lighter fabrics, used a French Burgundian
                      title (if you had been granted one, especially if it
                      was higher), and worn the LOCAL trappings of your
                      locally earned estate, probably never insisting that
                      "I can't wear that.., they don't wear that in my
                      homeland."

                      Just be creative.., with a Russian cut and flair.

                      Kazimir Petrovich
                      Bjornsborg, Ansteorra



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                    • orlirva@yahoo.com
                      I understand livery to simply mean clothes provided by a master to his household/estate servants, especially uniform clothes to attendants so as to provide a
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 19, 2001
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                        I understand livery to simply mean clothes provided by a master to
                        his household/estate servants, especially uniform clothes to
                        attendants so as to provide a sharp appearance - also no hard trick
                        if you buy one large bolt of cloth to make several outfits. They
                        would naturally enough tend to reflect colors from any COA, but there
                        was never any such rule. Each Boyar or Magnate bought such cloth
                        according to their own taste.

                        One of the first dragoon regiments in Poland to have uniforms became
                        uniform by accident: the colonel recieved as a gift a few hundred
                        yards of black wool that had been hung in the palace to morn the
                        death of a king. The relevance of this is that soilders are in a
                        sense servants of the Colonel, and they are outfited in uniform
                        livery or not, according to his pleasure (and willingness to pay for
                        uniform livery).

                        About COA, like in Poland they did not use the 'western' type system
                        most of us are familiar with (at least, not until later centuries,
                        when many rich guys started copying the western method). In Poland
                        and Ruthenia there was a clan badge type system in place, with
                        hundreds of often unrelated people using the same badge or symbol.
                        Whatever the origin of the clans, they came to not have the familial
                        nature we assume by the word 'clan', so that is not the best word for
                        it. It was sort of a set of social clubs, membership in which helped
                        assure your noble prerogatives. I think the Rus has a similar system,
                        but am not sure.
                        Rick Orli
                        http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PolArtCostumeWeapons.htm
                      • stasi.wa
                        Actually, Olearius talks about livery for the servants of the nobility. They don t necessarily have arms or anything but they have themes. Like the feast where
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 19, 2001
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                          Actually, Olearius talks about livery for the servants of the nobility. They
                          don't necessarily have arms or anything but they have themes. Like the feast
                          where all the servants wore white caftans?
                          Anastasia
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Monday, June 18, 2001 10:50 AM
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Livery


                          >I' probably wrong here, but I've never run across
                          >heraldry for late period Russians, aside from tha used
                          >to denote large towns on the Tsar's seal. Anyone
                          >else...?
                          >'dak
                          >--- Jenny Stewart <tbv@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> My soon to be Pelican wishes to have the household
                          >> all wear her livery -
                          >>


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                        • Tim Nalley
                          That s true, and the Domostroi mentions colored caftans for groomsmen, as does Giles Fletcher. ... __________________________________________________ Do You
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 19, 2001
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                            That's true, and the Domostroi mentions colored
                            caftans for groomsmen, as does Giles Fletcher.

                            --- "stasi.wa" <stasi.wa@...> wrote:
                            > Actually, Olearius talks about livery for the
                            > servants of the nobility. They
                            > don't necessarily have arms or anything but they
                            > have themes. Like the feast
                            > where all the servants wore white caftans?
                            > Anastasia
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                            > To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Date: Monday, June 18, 2001 10:50 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [sig] Livery
                            >
                            >
                            > >I' probably wrong here, but I've never run across
                            > >heraldry for late period Russians, aside from tha
                            > used
                            > >to denote large towns on the Tsar's seal. Anyone
                            > >else...?
                            > >'dak
                            > >--- Jenny Stewart <tbv@...> wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> My soon to be Pelican wishes to have the
                            > household
                            > >> all wear her livery -
                            > >>
                            >
                            >
                            > NetZero Platinum
                            > No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access
                            > Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month!
                            > http://www.netzero.net
                            >
                            >


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                          • MHoll@aol.com
                            In a message dated 6/19/2001 12:45:20 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Not really. The Rurikids had signs -- variations on the trident theme, sometimes a
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 19, 2001
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                              In a message dated 6/19/2001 12:45:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
                              orlirva@... writes:


                              > I think the Rus has a similar system,
                              >

                              Not really. The Rurikids had "signs" -- variations on the trident theme,
                              sometimes a two-pronged thing, which they used a little like badges. Not a
                              very structured thing. I am not aware that it brought any kind of
                              prerogatives with it, except to indicate a person was in the service of such
                              and such a kniaz.

                              Predslava.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • MHoll@aol.com
                              In a message dated 6/19/2001 4:18:38 PM Central Daylight Time, ... However: there is a difference between what is done/required for a ritual (wedding), and
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 19, 2001
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                                In a message dated 6/19/2001 4:18:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                mordakus@... writes:


                                > That's true, and the Domostroi mentions colored
                                >

                                However: there is a difference between what is done/required for a ritual
                                (wedding), and livery.

                                Predslava.


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Robert L. Parker
                                Greetings unto the list, I have been spottily following the livery thread and have a few questions. I recently was made squire and am wondering what I can do
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 19, 2001
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                                  Greetings unto the list,
                                  I have been spottily following the livery thread and have a few
                                  questions. I recently was made squire and am wondering what I can do to
                                  my fighting coat to signify my service to my knight. I used to wear a
                                  tabard with his device on my sleeve but trying to be period I moved to a
                                  kontuch(?) or Polish coat. In the period stuff I have seen, I haven't
                                  seen any affiliation markings except on armor and those being crosses
                                  and knightly orders. Does anyone have any ideas as to what I can do to
                                  display my knights device without it looking odd?
                                  Next, does anyone know the Russian or Polish word or equivalent for
                                  squire?

                                  Thanks much,
                                  Pomestnik Sergei
                                • Jenny Stewart
                                  what I can do to my fighting coat to signify my service to my knight. I used to wear a tabard with his device on my sleeve but trying to be period I moved to
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jun 20, 2001
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                                    what I can do to my fighting coat to signify my service to my knight. I
                                    used to wear a
                                    tabard with his device on my sleeve but trying to be period I moved to a
                                    kontuch(?) or Polish coat.... Does anyone have any ideas as to what I can
                                    do to
                                    display my knights device without it looking odd?
                                    Next, does anyone know the Russian or Polish word or equivalent for
                                    squire?

                                    A (releatively, coming from me) few words about arms & insignia &
                                    signifying connection with another here.
                                    One of the greatly under-used (and mis-constructed, in terms of period use)
                                    heraldic bits is the badge. Mostly SCA badges are actual arms/devices that
                                    are used for beyond-personal use. Period badges are Badges are generally
                                    fieldless - a thng with no background, which, when displayed on one of the
                                    colours (ie of the livery or garments) would then show up properly.

                                    Arms signify the person who owns them; Arms say "this is me" "I am here" .
                                    One should not wear the arms of another unless theyare acting as that
                                    person - this is why heralds wear the group arms - while it is the arms of
                                    the kingdom it is also the arms of the King, and the herald is acting as
                                    the King's voice. And it would be easy to tell when a person was acting as
                                    herald for another person - they would be acting like a herald. (when the
                                    duty was done, the message delivered, etc, the arms tabard would come off &
                                    the person would be their self again.) Arms mean possession; "mine", and
                                    while this is sort of true of the relationship here, there are better ways
                                    to say it than to wear the other's arms.

                                    Bades signify Association, and should not rightly be worn by the person to
                                    whom they belong ( assuming it to be a personal badge, rather than, say a
                                    group badge, (and then add that period guilds had arms, and households were
                                    based on the person of the househead & it complicates things)).

                                    So the Right and Proper thing to do in this case is to wear your knight's
                                    badge. Whether it is as a whole surcoat (and the difference between tabards
                                    and surcoats is...fighters wear surcoats, heralds wear tabards) or a patch
                                    or embellishment or part of the design, is very flexible. Badges are very
                                    flexible in use - weave/stencil them into fabric as the pattern , use them
                                    singly or multiply, here & there, worn & used. While one doesnt _wear_ Ones
                                    own badge, it IS right to use it on all one's belongings - from spoons to
                                    spears, from trinkets to tents.
                                    (The number of things that've been returned to me on account of having some
                                    remnant of a little green antler paint-stamped on is impressive - a bit of
                                    foam rubber or meat-tray styrofoam & a plate of craft paint...)

                                    Badges can be the main charge from the arms, or something totally
                                    unrelated. Badges can be embossed on belts, made into jewellry in many
                                    ways, etc etc. But like arms, it is better to register them before
                                    extensive use, though there can be a fuzzy line between using a design as
                                    art & style & using it as heraldry.

                                    Is that a sufficient overload to leave you totally confused? It's the
                                    little questions that can tend to bring this on, for heraldry is a deep &
                                    wide thing, & then SCA use (& misuse & abuse) comes into it. I do hope I've
                                    helped; if not, ask more. One of the greatest books on heradry in the whole
                                    world is called "Simple Heradry Cheerfully Illustrated" it has recentlyl
                                    been reprinted. It is _SO_ readable, concise and yet complete, for those of
                                    a starting level. It's readable for a child's level, yet with content &
                                    detail to be a great basic education for all citizens. The illustrations
                                    are indeed worth a thousand words each. It' sonly the size of a child's
                                    picture book, too. Seek it. buy it read it.

                                    In the cause of inflicting more heraldic education on the public, whether
                                    willingly or not, I remain
                                    Enna
                                  • Tim Nalley
                                    When I was a squire in the Midrealm, we had our knight s device painted on the tab end of our red belts. That way everyone knew who had strict liability for
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jun 20, 2001
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                                      When I was a squire in the Midrealm, we had our
                                      knight's device painted on the tab end of our red
                                      belts. That way everyone knew who had strict liability
                                      for your actions, good or bad, in an SCA sense. Very,
                                      very common here. In Merides, they wear sashes like
                                      the Poles. Maybe you could embroider your knight's
                                      device all over a red sash, or just at the ends.
                                      Stamping would also work.
                                      'dak


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                                    • Tim Nalley
                                      Er, I was unclear. my apologies to the group. The clothing color mentioned in the Domostroi is an informal livery, just as black is for priests, though not an
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jun 20, 2001
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                                        Er, I was unclear. my apologies to the group. The
                                        clothing color mentioned in the Domostroi is an
                                        informal livery, just as black is for priests, though
                                        not an absolute stricture in either case. Example, the
                                        white sash worn by the groomsmen in a baldric fashion
                                        would have been instantly identifiable as livery
                                        (which are essentially identifying props), in this
                                        case as a member of the wedding party itself.
                                        The same for streltsi uniforms, which could easily
                                        be considered a livery, in as much as they identify a
                                        group membership and the master they serve, all by
                                        visual cues. Not western heraldry, but livery none the
                                        less. Just informal.
                                        However, I agree, household livery in Russia, never
                                        have run across it or even mention of it. Maybe they
                                        should have gone on the crusades as well. Then they
                                        would be tons of Russian livery, like in the West.
                                        'dak

                                        > > That's true, and the Domostroi mentions colored
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > However: there is a difference between what is
                                        > done/required for a ritual
                                        > (wedding), and livery.


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                                      • Art Plazewski
                                        Giermek or more derogatory pacholek Art. ... From: Robert L. Parker [mailto:parkrobe@isu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 9:46 PM To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jun 20, 2001
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                                          Giermek or more derogatory pacholek
                                          Art.

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Robert L. Parker [mailto:parkrobe@...]
                                          Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 9:46 PM
                                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [sig] Re: Livery

                                          Greetings unto the list,
                                          I have been spottily following the livery thread and have a few
                                          questions. I recently was made squire and am wondering what I can do to
                                          my fighting coat to signify my service to my knight. I used to wear a
                                          tabard with his device on my sleeve but trying to be period I moved to a
                                          kontuch(?) or Polish coat. In the period stuff I have seen, I haven't
                                          seen any affiliation markings except on armor and those being crosses
                                          and knightly orders. Does anyone have any ideas as to what I can do to
                                          display my knights device without it looking odd?
                                          Next, does anyone know the Russian or Polish word or equivalent for
                                          squire?

                                          Thanks much,
                                          Pomestnik Sergei





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                                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        • Art Plazewski
                                          In more courtly environment - paz Art ... From: Robert L. Parker [mailto:parkrobe@isu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 9:46 PM To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jun 20, 2001
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                                            In more courtly environment - paz'
                                            Art

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Robert L. Parker [mailto:parkrobe@...]
                                            Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 9:46 PM
                                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [sig] Re: Livery

                                            Next, does anyone know the Russian or Polish word or equivalent for
                                            squire?

                                            Thanks much,
                                            Pomestnik Sergei





                                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          • Diane S. Sawyer
                                            ... {snip} ... {snip} ... Um, not exactly. In my research, tabards have vestigial sleeves, surcotes do not. The fighters in my household wear tabards,
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jun 20, 2001
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                                              --- Jenny Stewart <tbv@...> wrote:
                                              {snip}
                                              > So the Right and Proper thing to do in this case is to wear your
                                              > knight's
                                              > badge. Whether it is as a whole surcoat (and the difference between
                                              > tabards
                                              > and surcoats is...fighters wear surcoats, heralds wear tabards)
                                              {snip}
                                              > Enna

                                              Um, not exactly. In my research, tabards have vestigial sleeves,
                                              surcotes do not. The fighters in my household wear tabards, because
                                              they have sleeves. I have written an article on the subject of
                                              making heraldic tabards and surcotes, which can be found at
                                              http://sca-garb.freeservers.com/articles/tabards.html In it, I do
                                              make the generalization that fighters and archers wear surcotes and
                                              heralds wear tabards, but it is more a freedom of movement issue than
                                              a hard and fast rule.

                                              Tasha

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                                            • orlirva@yahoo.com
                                              In Poland, the knight equivilant is towarazysze , (`comrades or `companions ) Each comrade has pocztowi ( `retainers ), as many as he could afford to
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jun 20, 2001
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                                                In Poland, the knight equivilant is 'towarazysze', (`comrades' or
                                                `companions') Each comrade has 'pocztowi' ( `retainers'), as many as
                                                he could afford to equip. The Comrade and his retainers constituted a
                                                Post (poczet). These retainers were szlatchta (nobles/gentry), mostly
                                                poor, but could also be a younger brother or cousin gaining
                                                experience, for example. A comrade fought in the front rank, a
                                                pocztowich in the rear ranks.

                                                You did not 'win your spurs' in the western tradition; any noble with
                                                enough training, experience (including age), respect, and wealth
                                                could be a towarach. (by age I mean, say, over 20... not to many 40
                                                year olds could cope with the athletic demands of being a hussar)

                                                Oh, and the word root is that same as that used for the Post (mail)
                                                so, when you pocztowi carry your brace of wheellock pistols around,
                                                please try not to 'go postal' (arrgh....)

                                                Rotmiestrz Buzownowski
                                                (-Rick Orli)

                                                --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
                                                > In more courtly environment - paz'
                                                > Art
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: Robert L. Parker [mailto:parkrobe@i...]
                                                > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 9:46 PM
                                                > To: sig@y...
                                                > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: Livery
                                                >
                                                > Next, does anyone know the Russian or Polish word or equivalent
                                                for
                                                > squire?
                                                >
                                                > Thanks much,
                                                > Pomestnik Sergei
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              • Art Plazewski
                                                Rick - it s a good description choragwi husarskiej (a hussar unit) but not a word squire ;-) For calling pocztowego a squire one could be killed. They did
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jun 21, 2001
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                                                  Rick -

                                                  it's a good description choragwi husarskiej (a hussar unit) but not a
                                                  word "squire" ;-)
                                                  For calling "pocztowego" a squire one could be killed. They did some
                                                  squire duties but they were not squires per se...
                                                  As for a root of the word "pocztowy" - it's a "poczet" - group of people
                                                  assembled together, assigned to the same institution.
                                                  Art.
                                                  PS
                                                  You wrote :" could be a towarach" - should be : "could be a towarzysz".
                                                  PS II
                                                  Saw your expanded site - looks good...


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: orlirva@... [mailto:orlirva@...]
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:35 AM
                                                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [sig] Re: Livery & 'going postal'

                                                  In Poland, the knight equivilant is 'towarazysze', (`comrades' or
                                                  `companions') Each comrade has 'pocztowi' ( `retainers'), as many as
                                                  he could afford to equip. The Comrade and his retainers constituted a
                                                  Post (poczet). These retainers were szlatchta (nobles/gentry), mostly
                                                  poor, but could also be a younger brother or cousin gaining
                                                  experience, for example. A comrade fought in the front rank, a
                                                  pocztowich in the rear ranks.

                                                  You did not 'win your spurs' in the western tradition; any noble with
                                                  enough training, experience (including age), respect, and wealth
                                                  could be a towarach. (by age I mean, say, over 20... not to many 40
                                                  year olds could cope with the athletic demands of being a hussar)

                                                  Oh, and the word root is that same as that used for the Post (mail)
                                                  so, when you pocztowi carry your brace of wheellock pistols around,
                                                  please try not to 'go postal' (arrgh....)

                                                  Rotmiestrz Buzownowski
                                                  (-Rick Orli)

                                                  --- In sig@y..., Art Plazewski <jbcp@p...> wrote:
                                                  > In more courtly environment - paz'
                                                  > Art
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: Robert L. Parker [mailto:parkrobe@i...]
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 9:46 PM
                                                  > To: sig@y...
                                                  > Subject: Re: [sig] Re: Livery
                                                  >
                                                  > Next, does anyone know the Russian or Polish word or equivalent
                                                  for
                                                  > squire?
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks much,
                                                  > Pomestnik Sergei
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





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