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Linen weight

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  • AKC7
    How important is Linen weight? Does it hold some importance, function? or does it just depend on personal perference? I notied in Fabric-Store.com they have
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 30 9:23 AM
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      How important is Linen weight? Does it hold some importance,
      function? or does it just depend on personal perference?

      I notied in Fabric-Store.com they have two big sections of Linen in
      different colors. 5.5 oz and 7.4 oz



      As for the color of period Linen (13th cent.) I understand they used
      earth tones? any idea what type of exotic or maybe less uncommon colors
      they would have had?


      thanks,
      Andrew
    • Lente
      Andrew, This list was posted to a garb list I am on a while back. I hope it helps some. ~~ 3.5 oz/yd Commonly referred to as handkerchief weight . Great for
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 30 4:04 PM
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        Andrew,

        This list was posted to a garb list I am on a while back. I hope it helps
        some.
        ~~
        3.5 oz/yd
        Commonly referred to as "handkerchief weight". Great for chemises.

        5.2 oz/yd
        5.5 oz/yd
        5.9 oz/yd
        "Dress weight". It has enough drape for a cotehardie to look
        lovely. But still, the lighter colours are a little less than opaque.

        7.4 oz/yd
        VERY coarse. I'm using it for field garb for my betrothed. It is
        heavy, and visibly coarse. It feels nice, but it looks very slubby.
        But you wouldn't see through it, that's for sure!

        I would buy 3.5 oz for both veils and underdress. Unless
        a great portion of the underdress will be seen, then I would go for
        5.5 oz. Both white, of course.

        I wouldn't make hosen out of linen because it doesn't have enough
        give, even on the bias. But if I *had* to, I would make them out of
        7.4 oz. But I would rather make them out of wool (wash it well in
        hot water and it won't itch).
        ~~
        I would probably use the 7.4 oz for pants and jackets and use the 5.5 oz.
        for shirts and such.
        Colors could be pretty much any out there now except the neons. I have heard
        of people getting lime green and Barbie pink from natural dyes, so not
        everything would have been earth colors. I also heard that one of the
        unicorn tapestries (don't remember which one), that all the colors in it
        came from three dyes, madder (red), woad (blue) and something yellow. This
        was found out by chemical analyisis. Granted its English or French but still
        some dyes were common across several countries. I would give you a color
        chart that I saw on the web a while back but I can't find it yet.

        Kathws Rusa

        Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001
        > How important is Linen weight? Does it hold some importance,
        > function? or does it just depend on personal perference?
        >
        > I notied in Fabric-Store.com they have two big sections of Linen in
        > different colors. 5.5 oz and 7.4 oz
        >
        > As for the color of period Linen (13th cent.) I understand they used
        > earth tones? any idea what type of exotic or maybe less uncommon colors
        > they would have had?
      • Purple Kat
        At 4/30/2001 07:04 PM, you wrote: ... Kathws, When you find the link, could you post it here? I would love to have a reference to compare colors,
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 30 4:28 PM
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          At 4/30/2001 07:04 PM, you wrote:

          <big snip>

          > I would give you a color
          >chart that I saw on the web a while back but I can't find it yet.
          >
          >Kathws Rusa


          Kathws,

          When you find the link, could you post it here? I would love to have a
          reference to compare colors, and figure out what shades are useable.

          Katheryne
        • Jenn/Yana
          ... I m not sure about linen coming in all the above colors in SCA-period Russia, or for that matter, SCA-Europe. Linen is notoriously difficult to dye (even
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 30 7:06 PM
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            >Colors could be pretty much any out there now except the neons. I have heard
            >of people getting lime green and Barbie pink from natural dyes, so not
            >everything would have been earth colors. I also heard that one of the
            >unicorn tapestries (don't remember which one), that all the colors in it
            >came from three dyes, madder (red), woad (blue) and something yellow. This
            >was found out by chemical analyisis. Granted its English or French but still
            >some dyes were common across several countries. I would give you a color
            >chart that I saw on the web a while back but I can't find it yet.
            >
            >Kathws Rusa


            I'm not sure about linen coming in all the above colors in SCA-period
            Russia, or for that matter, SCA-Europe. Linen is notoriously difficult to
            dye (even today some colors will rub off, because most dyes only cling to
            the surface of the fibers, this being one of the reasons linen resists
            staining so well). The only colors that I can remember linen being
            available in in Russia were raw (greyish), bleached (white), offwhite,
            yellow (I think), and grey-blue. Yes, all the above colors the quoted
            person mentioned were available, but I think that they only apply to wool,
            cotton, and silk. <time passes> I just checked the materials of the
            Unicorn tapestry: Wool warp, wool, silk, silver, and gilt wefts. No linen.
            I'm not trying to disprove the person above, I'm just trying to point out
            that _linen_ may not have been available in every color of the rainbow.

            --Yana
          • Sarayya@aol.com
            Kathws - thanks for the linen weight reference. Very helpful. As for linen colors - I agree with Yana s list in the main, but the Scythian warrior garments
            Message 5 of 11 , May 1, 2001
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              Kathws - thanks for the linen weight reference. Very helpful.

              As for linen colors - I agree with Yana's list in the main, but the Scythian
              warrior garments from the "Scythian Gold" exhibit consist of armor over a
              linen shirt and pants of a faded warm berry pink color, probably originally
              dyed red. And since red seems to always be the right color for "Russians",
              I'm sure they would have spent a lot of effort trying to dye linen red.

              Soraya
            • Jenn/Yana
              ... I do remember reading (in the context of Celtic clothing) that murex purple is one of the more successful natural dyes on linen. I think that you could
              Message 6 of 11 , May 1, 2001
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                >As for linen colors - I agree with Yana's list in the main, but the Scythian
                >warrior garments from the "Scythian Gold" exhibit consist of armor over a
                >linen shirt and pants of a faded warm berry pink color, probably originally
                >dyed red. And since red seems to always be the right color for "Russians",
                >I'm sure they would have spent a lot of effort trying to dye linen red.
                >
                >Soraya

                I do remember reading (in the context of Celtic clothing) that murex purple
                is one of the more successful natural dyes on linen. I think that you
                could get a purple-red from it. One thing to think about is if the
                Scythian outfit could have been stained from being buried in something (did
                the exhibit say anything about the dye?). Another thing to consider would
                be if the method(s) for dyeing linen in shades of red could have been
                "lost" and "refound" at various times during Russia's history, perhaps
                making red linen not "period" for some times. I'm really just playing
                "devil's advocate" here, I'd love to hear more details on medieval Russian
                textiles, myself.

                --Yana
              • Robert J Welenc
                ... have heard ... not ... One of the Viking ladies at Atlantia s recent coronation was naalbinding viking socks with natural-dyed wool -- in lavender and
                Message 7 of 11 , May 2, 2001
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                  At 09:06 PM 4/30/01 -0500, you wrote:
                  >>Colors could be pretty much any out there now except the neons. I
                  have heard
                  >>of people getting lime green and Barbie pink from natural dyes, so
                  not
                  >>everything would have been earth colors.

                  One of the Viking ladies at Atlantia's recent coronation was
                  naalbinding viking socks with natural-dyed wool -- in lavender and
                  bright lemon yellow!

                  Alanna
                  ***********
                  Saying of the day: Those who fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
                • Lente
                  Yeah I forgot about it being wool in that tapestry. I tend to think of colors and right now I don t necessarily associate the color to a speciaifc fiber like
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 2, 2001
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                    Yeah I forgot about it being wool in that tapestry. I tend to think of
                    colors and right now I don't necessarily associate the color to a speciaifc
                    fiber like wool. Gotta work on that. My bad.:o(

                    Speaking of which I just got some pale lime green wool in a twill and also a
                    dark fushia/purple wool, I'm think of making a jacket in the lime green
                    based off of my tunic pattern and the fushia/purple I'm going to make a
                    Hungarian szur ( for SCA and modern use) out of, not the right color but I
                    definitely shudder and cringe at using white in the desert, where all that
                    dirt will just show up soo well.

                    Kathws Rusa
                    Doing the Wakka-Wakka dance, my name passed kingdom. WooHoo!;^)


                    Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001

                    > I'm not sure about linen coming in all the above colors in SCA-period
                    > Russia, or for that matter, SCA-Europe. Linen is notoriously difficult to
                    > dye (even today some colors will rub off, because most dyes only cling to
                    > the surface of the fibers, this being one of the reasons linen resists
                    > staining so well). The only colors that I can remember linen being
                    > available in in Russia were raw (greyish), bleached (white), offwhite,
                    > yellow (I think), and grey-blue. Yes, all the above colors the quoted
                    > person mentioned were available, but I think that they only apply to wool,
                    > cotton, and silk. <time passes> I just checked the materials of the
                    > Unicorn tapestry: Wool warp, wool, silk, silver, and gilt wefts. No
                    linen.
                    > I'm not trying to disprove the person above, I'm just trying to point out
                    > that _linen_ may not have been available in every color of the rainbow.
                    >
                    > --Yana
                  • Su Ralston
                    ... If the on-line fabric store you are purchasing from is Fabrics-store.com, they are very contecious and quick. The medium weight is nice for shirts/under
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 16, 2004
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                      > From: Mikhail Nicholaev <mikhail@...>
                      > Subject: Clothing questions
                      >
                      > <snipped>
                      >
                      > But being still fairly new to all things not-cotton, what weight do you
                      > all recommend? I found a site listing linen in light, medium and heavy
                      > weight, and being in Meridies (Georgia) I was thinking Medium would be
                      > light enough to not be sweltering and sturdy enough to deal with my wear
                      > and tear on it.
                      >
                      If the on-line fabric store you are purchasing from is Fabrics-store.com,
                      they are very contecious and quick. The medium weight is nice for
                      shirts/under tunics, (3.5 oz may be better for warm weather, but the 5.3 oz
                      is great when it's not in the 90's). The heavy weight would be better for
                      vests, coats and pants.

                      > So with the side clasped neck, what type of clasps would it have been?
                      > Wooden? Gold? And would it have been trimmed?
                      >
                      Since you should have buttons with stems (rather than discs with holes), I
                      would recommend something other than wood (unless you are going to use
                      spherical beads and make the buttons yourself).

                      > As for colors, I was thinking red as the shirt itself and gold as an
                      > accent in the trim.
                      >
                      Red would look nice, but if you have any concerns that the red is going
                      bleed onto the gold, use a single color, then add trim to the neck and cuff
                      areas.

                      > Thoughts? comments? Slaps upside the head?
                      Sorry, you'd like it too much!

                      Su of the Silver Horn, Caid
                      Su Ralston, Fullerton, CA
                      (Yana - nice webpage BTW!)
                    • Lente
                      I am cutting and pasting from another list that someone posted these linen weights and silk weights. hope this helps.--kathws These are the general
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 16, 2004
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                        I am cutting and pasting from another list that someone posted these linen
                        weights and silk weights. hope this helps.--kathws

                        These are the general recommendations for linen weights. I didn't write
                        them- I don't remember who did, unfortunately!

                        Hanky Linen (usually 3.5 oz) - Good for veils, chemises, linings, etc.

                        Lightweight linen (usually 3.6-4.2 oz) - Good for veils, chemises, linings,
                        tunics when you'll be wearing two or more, skirts (again, if you'll be
                        layering) harem pants, etc.

                        Medium weight linen (usually 4.3-5.5 oz) - Good for tunics, skirts, bodices,

                        most any type of gown. The most common weight used in garb.

                        Heavy weight linen (5.6-7.2 oz and beyond) - Good for heavy-duty garb like
                        fencing vests and pants, garb that will get much stress put on it like
                        side-laced bliauts, etc. The 5.6 range is good for back-laced cotehardies.
                        Line a coat
                        weight wool cloak in 7.2 oz linen and you'll never go cold, though you might

                        faint from exhaustion after walking round all day in it. Good bed blanket,
                        that.

                        ---

                        As for silk, I can make a few garb recommendations based on weight, though
                        everyone's welcome to chime in and tell me that I'm completely wrong! Silk
                        generally goes by mm weight- that is, momme (pronounced "mummy", I think),
                        though
                        heavy weight silks, such as suiting silks, go by grams or have no weight
                        listed.

                        1-8 mm: These are usually sheer or semisheer, and quite wispy. I've never
                        seen anything below 3 or 3.5 mm, which is very airy, transparent silk gauze.

                        Lighter weight habotai (habutai, also called "China silk") falls into this
                        category, as does lighter-weight chiffon (not georgette, it seems) and
                        organza
                        (other than "heavy" organza).

                        10-18mm: Ten mm or so seems to be when things begin to become solid rather
                        than sheer, though 12mm is still quite light. Silk satin (not heavy bridal
                        satin) is in this area, as are some habotais, georgettes, heavy organza,
                        some
                        charmeuse, most crepe de chine. Most jacquards also fall into this
                        category, as
                        do some tussahs.

                        18mm and up: Heavier weight silk. Most charmeuse, some crepe de chine.
                        Some
                        jacquards, some dupioni (Chinese dupioni, as seen at Silk Connection, is
                        19mm). Tussah boucle, some other tussahs, heavy bridal satin (23mm), heavy
                        charmeuse.

                        The weights given are all from www.silkconnection.com. Silk taffeta was not
                        given a weight but is considered "lightweight" (I'm not sure if that makes
                        it sheer or not- some taffetas seem to be sheer, others are quite opaque).
                        Fuji broadcloth is measured in pound-weights (10lb), silk noil did not have
                        a
                        weight listing but can be lightweight or heavier (I have noil thin enough
                        that it needed a backing). Silk/rayon velvets, burnout and solid, are not
                        given
                        weights but are generally considered to be heavy in large quantities <g>.
                      • Mikhail Nicholaev
                        Thanks so much for all the responses, and thanks Lente for your response with info on Silk, I was about to ask about it as well. I ll probably go hit up the
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 16, 2004
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                          Thanks so much for all the responses, and thanks Lente for your response
                          with info on Silk, I was about to ask about it as well. I'll probably go
                          hit up the local fabric store this weekend and see what they have.

                          One question which got overshadowed was about clasps for the neck. I
                          have a friend who does bone work and she suggested toggles. Does anyone
                          know if bone was used for these or were they wood and precious metal?

                          --
                          Vsegda k vashim uslugam
                          Ever at your Service
                          Pomestnik Mikhail Nicholaev
                          http://www.argenthawk.com/penning/

                          Head of the
                          House of St. Ambrose

                          Lente wrote:
                          > I am cutting and pasting from another list that someone posted these linen
                          > weights and silk weights. hope this helps.--kathws
                          >
                          > These are the general recommendations for linen weights. I didn't write
                          > them- I don't remember who did, unfortunately!
                          >
                          > Hanky Linen (usually 3.5 oz) - Good for veils, chemises, linings, etc.
                          >
                          > Lightweight linen (usually 3.6-4.2 oz) - Good for veils, chemises, linings,
                          > tunics when you'll be wearing two or more, skirts (again, if you'll be
                          > layering) harem pants, etc.
                          >
                          > Medium weight linen (usually 4.3-5.5 oz) - Good for tunics, skirts, bodices,
                          >
                          > most any type of gown. The most common weight used in garb.
                          >
                          > Heavy weight linen (5.6-7.2 oz and beyond) - Good for heavy-duty garb like
                          > fencing vests and pants, garb that will get much stress put on it like
                          > side-laced bliauts, etc. The 5.6 range is good for back-laced cotehardies.
                          > Line a coat
                          > weight wool cloak in 7.2 oz linen and you'll never go cold, though you might
                          >
                          > faint from exhaustion after walking round all day in it. Good bed blanket,
                          > that.
                          >
                          > ---
                          >
                          > As for silk, I can make a few garb recommendations based on weight, though
                          > everyone's welcome to chime in and tell me that I'm completely wrong! Silk
                          > generally goes by mm weight- that is, momme (pronounced "mummy", I think),
                          > though
                          > heavy weight silks, such as suiting silks, go by grams or have no weight
                          > listed.
                          >
                          > 1-8 mm: These are usually sheer or semisheer, and quite wispy. I've never
                          > seen anything below 3 or 3.5 mm, which is very airy, transparent silk gauze.
                          >
                          > Lighter weight habotai (habutai, also called "China silk") falls into this
                          > category, as does lighter-weight chiffon (not georgette, it seems) and
                          > organza
                          > (other than "heavy" organza).
                          >
                          > 10-18mm: Ten mm or so seems to be when things begin to become solid rather
                          > than sheer, though 12mm is still quite light. Silk satin (not heavy bridal
                          > satin) is in this area, as are some habotais, georgettes, heavy organza,
                          > some
                          > charmeuse, most crepe de chine. Most jacquards also fall into this
                          > category, as
                          > do some tussahs.
                          >
                          > 18mm and up: Heavier weight silk. Most charmeuse, some crepe de chine.
                          > Some
                          > jacquards, some dupioni (Chinese dupioni, as seen at Silk Connection, is
                          > 19mm). Tussah boucle, some other tussahs, heavy bridal satin (23mm), heavy
                          > charmeuse.
                          >
                          > The weights given are all from www.silkconnection.com. Silk taffeta was not
                          > given a weight but is considered "lightweight" (I'm not sure if that makes
                          > it sheer or not- some taffetas seem to be sheer, others are quite opaque).
                          > Fuji broadcloth is measured in pound-weights (10lb), silk noil did not have
                          > a
                          > weight listing but can be lightweight or heavier (I have noil thin enough
                          > that it needed a backing). Silk/rayon velvets, burnout and solid, are not
                          > given
                          > weights but are generally considered to be heavy in large quantities <g>.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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