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Re: [sig] Cheshuichaty Panzir

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  • AKC7
    ... Well actually I m researching armour so that I may be able to move on and start making my own to practice in with the SCA. The problem is, well as
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 10 6:30 PM
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      > What exactly are you researching? I can help you.
      >
      > -Dmitriy


      Well actually I'm researching armour so that I may be able to move
      on and start making my own to practice in with the SCA. The problem is,
      well as everyone should known chain mail is great period, however since
      we are not really trying to cut anyone in the SCA it has little purpose
      except for making pretty bruse patterns. *lol* Anyway, after looking
      at some examples of armour from "Armies of Medieval Russia 750-1250" by
      David Nicolle, the first "plate" "Before the Rus', 9th C AD" has a
      Eastern Magyar cavalryman. And this is what is said about the "plate"
      "The advanced metallurgy of the Khazars and their Magyar allies is shown
      in many archaeological excavations, few of which are widely known
      outside Russia. In addition to helmits, mail hauberks and lamellar
      curasses, some of the Khazar-Magyar millitary elite wore plated lef and
      shoulder pieces reflecting Presian and Middle Eastern influence."
      what really garbed my attention was the lamellar curass and the plated
      shoulder pieces. The only problem really is did that stuff exist during
      the 13th cent. from what I know I've seen another shoulder plate placed
      around the 12th cent. however I've heard little to nothing about a
      curasses. It was though research that I found out about the
      "Cheshuichaty Panzir" on the Silk Road Armoury which says "In Russia,
      the scale garment, called "Cheshuichaty Panzir" (literally "Armour of
      Scales"), was a local style of armour that existed from time immemorial.
      It could be of a variety of styles, from vest to long coat, with
      differently shaped plates. In aproximately the thirteenth century, the
      Russians began to distinguish a subtype of scale armour by the use of a
      Turko-Mongol term -- Kuyak. There seem to be three types of Kuyak: One
      of overlapping large rectangular plates (smilar to the Chinese armour I
      call Reverse Brigandine), One of plates that allowed gapping where the
      leather backing showed through (similar in style to the Kolontar, maile
      and plates armour), and one where small, non-overlapping discs were
      attached to a backing. All three seem to have generally been a waist
      length cuirass of poncho or separate front and back construction, and to
      have generally been worn over a knee length Hauberk."

      I might just be confusing my self with some of the complexities
      of armour in history. <shrug> I hope you can shed some light Dmitriy.


      - thanks,
      Andrew
    • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
      Panzir means body armor (it s a general term). Cheshuichatyi means made of scales. It s not a well-defined term, like a kuyak, rather it is a general
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 11 3:53 AM
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        "Panzir" means body armor (it's a general term).
        "Cheshuichatyi" means made of scales.

        It's not a well-defined term, like a kuyak, rather it is a general
        description for a body armor made of scales.

        The guy on the right in the picture wears something rather ahistorical, I am
        afraid.. the scales are far too big.

        What exactly are you researching? I can help you.

        -Dmitriy


        >From: "AKC7" <AKC7@...>
        > What does a "Cheshuichaty Panzir" look like?
        <snip>
        > something like this Kuyak, but longer?
        >http://members.nbci.com/Rushistory/armor/varanwar.jpg
        > {The guy with the big rectangle plates}

        >thanks,
        > Andrew

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      • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
        Sorry about the delay, had some computer problems, as well as haven t been at home to look a the boks much.. From your message, it seems you are doing 13th
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 15 10:34 PM
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          Sorry about the delay, had some computer problems, as well as haven't been
          at home to look a the boks much..

          From your message, it seems you are doing 13th century and haven't settled
          on exact location yet?

          Anyway, lamellar cuirasses are most definitely period for 13th century. At
          the moment, I am translating an article about a 13th century armour workshop
          that was discovered in Gomel'. It contains a large variety of lamellar
          plates, as well as sections of maille fabric, tools, etc. As for the
          shoulder pieces, they are a bit problematic in that it hasn't really been
          proven that they were *shoulder* armour -- one of the books I have calls
          them "knee or shoulder protectors," another glosses over the exact function.
          It is clear, however, that they were used to cover some vulnerable joint,
          and until moer information comes to light, you are free to interpret them as
          you wish. The plates are attributed to Polovtsy (aka Cumans aka Kipchaks),
          which means 12th-mid13th centuries, and I *think* I remember reading that
          the Mongols used these too, so the upper bound can be extended.

          As for scale armours, go with what Norman (of the Silk Road) says -- he's
          right, there isn't really much that I can add.

          SCA-use wise -- I currently use a full maille hauberk and a steel lamellar
          cuirass. Before that, I used a leather lamellar vest, but I had to add a
          hidden plate over the sternum for wars -- them fiberglass pikes hurt! No
          such problem with the steel. Do not listen to naysayers, maille does
          provide protection in SCA combat, though it is not as useful as against
          steel. It is particularly good in the groin area. If you can afford it, I
          would reccomend that you use a rivetted or welded hauberk -- this would be
          more period, lighter (since the links are closed, they do not need to be as
          thick), and would look cooler than butted.

          I'll try to get some pics of my new armour up soon, but no promises.

          Ask if you have further questions.

          -Dmitriy

          >From: "AKC7" <AKC7@...>
          > Well actually I'm researching armour so that I may be able to move
          >on and start making my own to practice in with the SCA. The problem is,
          >well as everyone should known chain mail is great period, however since
          >we are not really trying to cut anyone in the SCA it has little purpose
          >except for making pretty bruse patterns. *lol*
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        • AKC7
          ... settled ... True, there are different parts of Russia which offer advantages in different areas, and well I m not quite sure where I would like to fit in.
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 17 8:54 AM
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            > From your message, it seems you are doing 13th century and haven't
            settled
            > on exact location yet?

            True, there are different parts of Russia which offer advantages in
            different
            areas, and well I'm not quite sure where I would like to fit in.

            Okay, thanks that helped very much, the only thing I still am not
            sure about
            is a lamellar cuirass to the knees. Would it be one piece like a tunic
            or maille
            hauberk? or a lamellar vest with two extra pices that attach at the leg
            or
            waiste? OR is that specific to just scale? {goes to check norms
            page}



            > I'll try to get some pics of my new armour up soon, but no promises.

            WOW, awesome, cool, I think I would have a cow...... *lol*
            hope
            to see it.
          • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
            Here s to hoping that this message will actually go through the day I send it, not 2 days later.. ... If I may make a suggestion, setle on a subculture and
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 18 4:05 AM
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              Here's to hoping that this message will actually go through the day I send
              it, not 2 days later..

              >True, there are different parts of Russia which offer advantages in
              >different areas, and well I'm not quite sure where I would like to fit in.
              >

              If I may make a suggestion, setle on a subculture and read up on history
              before you make a choice -- different cities make a world of difference.
              For myself, I am currently leaning towards Chernigov, due to its close
              relationship with the Black Klobuks (who had the coolest armour :).

              >Okay, thanks that helped very much, the only thing I still am not sure
              >about is a lamellar cuirass to the knees. Would it be one piece like a
              >tunic or maille hauberk? or a lamellar vest with two extra pices that
              >attach at the leg >or waiste? OR is that specific to just scale? {goes to
              >check norms page}

              The article I sent a link to a while ago (fine, fine, here it is:
              http://www.tgorod.go.ru/index.shtml?librar0027a ) documents a lamellar armor
              that reaches almost to the knees. Note that it's not Russian, but probably
              Polovets in origin.
              Largely based on iconographic evidence (few complete suits were found, most
              of the finds are separate plates) A. N. Kirpichnikov in "Drevnerusskoe
              oruzhie" describes lamellar armor as reaching to the hips (from practical
              experience, I think the waist more likely -- about an inch of difference,
              but very important on a skinny guy like myself). Scale armour also usually
              reaches to the waist -- but then continues to mid-thigh with much larger
              plates. Shoulders and upper arms are also protected by longer scales. It
              is not clear to me whether these were integrated with the body armour or if
              the skirt was separate but overlapping with the torso armour (the latter
              covering the top of the former).

              Dmitriy Shelomianin




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            • Kate Jones
              Heyo. Just noticed that there are a _few_ things in this list s files section on the Yahoo groups page... I added a picture of myself from the SIG meeting last
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 18 1:32 PM
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                Heyo.

                Just noticed that there are a _few_ things in this list's files
                section on the Yahoo groups page...

                I added a picture of myself from the SIG meeting last Pennsic, in that
                hat I borrowed from...someone. (Who was that again?)

                If anyone else has anything they'd like to add, that'd be really
                cool. Let's see what everyone's favorite Eastern European project is!

                Kat'ryna
                --
                Kate Jones | I turned my world upside-down
                kate@... | and that's how everything landed...
              • Jenn/Yana
                ... For those who don t know how to get to our files on Yahoo, here is the URL for Kat ryna s picture: . You
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 18 2:35 PM
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                  Kat'ryna wrote:

                  >I added a picture of myself from the SIG meeting last Pennsic, in that
                  >hat I borrowed from...someone. (Who was that again?)


                  For those who don't know how to get to our files on Yahoo, here is the URL
                  for Kat'ryna's picture: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sig/files/kate.jpg>.
                  You do not have to be logged in to access the files area.

                  I can't remember the name of the owner of the kokoshnik, but I know that
                  Mordak knows her (I'm such a big help).

                  --Yana
                • AKC7
                  ... history ... difference. ... Where is Chernigov located? and by Black Kolbuks are you talking about the Black Hoods settlements or by the looks of it
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 19 9:04 AM
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                    > If I may make a suggestion, setle on a subculture and read up on
                    history
                    > before you make a choice -- different cities make a world of
                    difference.
                    > For myself, I am currently leaning towards Chernigov, due to its close
                    > relationship with the Black Klobuks (who had the coolest armour :).

                    Where is Chernigov located? and by Black Kolbuks are you talking
                    about the "Black Hoods settlements" or by the looks of it what eastern
                    reference are you do you mean?



                    =
                    Andrew

                    P.S.- Sorry if this is recieved on the list more then once.
                  • AKC7
                    ... friend D. ... Wow, thanks! I didn t find the Treasures book, although I did find the Arms and Armor! and I was surprise how I didn t know he had a book
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 19 5:22 PM
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                      > Check out books like "Treasures of Medieval Russia" for period
                      > representations or "Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era" by your
                      friend D.
                      > Nicolle for his interpretation of period representation.

                      Wow, thanks!
                      I didn't find the Treasures book, although I did find the Arms
                      and
                      Armor! and I was surprise how I didn't know he had a book like that,
                      and in fact it seems it would be a good read.



                      thank you,
                      Andrew
                    • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
                      Hi Andrew & the rest of the list, Chernigov is a bit North of Kiev.. here is a map of modern Uraine that will make it a bit clearer (sorry, didn t have time to
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 19 7:18 PM
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                        Hi Andrew & the rest of the list,
                        Chernigov is a bit North of Kiev.. here is a map of modern Uraine that will
                        make it a bit clearer (sorry, didn't have time to look for a historical
                        map):
                        http://travel.kyiv.org/map/index.html

                        I've seen Black Klobucks translated also as "Black Caps", I guess "Black
                        Hoods" is valid too (anyone know what exactly a klobuk is, assuming it's not
                        the priest headdress thing?). It was a confederation of several tribes that
                        were previously defeated and dispersed by Polovtsy (Kumans, Kipchaks)
                        established by the Russian Princes as a buffer zone between them and the
                        Polovtsy. The three groups that formed most of it were Berendeys,
                        Pechenegs, and Torks.
                        The reason I say they had the coolest armour is because the awesome mask
                        helmets from Lipovcy and Kovali are thought to be theirs (not Polovets, as
                        thought earlier).



                        Dmitriy Shelomianin
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                      • Robert J Welenc
                        ... mask ... Polovets, as ... Awesome mask helmets? Are there pictures of those on the web, or can I get a better description? Alanna *********** Saying of
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 20 9:16 AM
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                          >The reason I say they had the coolest armour is because the awesome
                          mask
                          >helmets from Lipovcy and Kovali are thought to be theirs (not
                          Polovets, as
                          >thought earlier).
                          >
                          Awesome mask helmets? Are there pictures of those on the web, or can
                          I get a better description?

                          Alanna
                          ***********
                          Saying of the day: Those who fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
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