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Cheshuichaty Panzir

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  • AKC7
    What does a Cheshuichaty Panzir look like? As I understand it Kuyak a subtype of scale armour came from Cheshuichaty Panzir , so does that mean a
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 10, 2001
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      What does a "Cheshuichaty Panzir" look like? As I understand it
      "Kuyak" a subtype of scale armour came from "Cheshuichaty Panzir", so
      does that mean a ""Cheshuichaty Panzir" could use the same type of
      scales?

      something like this Kuyak, but longer?
      http://members.nbci.com/Rushistory/armor/varanwar.jpg
      {The guy with the big rectangle plates}



      thanks,
      Andrew
    • AKC7
      ... Well actually I m researching armour so that I may be able to move on and start making my own to practice in with the SCA. The problem is, well as
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 10, 2001
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        > What exactly are you researching? I can help you.
        >
        > -Dmitriy


        Well actually I'm researching armour so that I may be able to move
        on and start making my own to practice in with the SCA. The problem is,
        well as everyone should known chain mail is great period, however since
        we are not really trying to cut anyone in the SCA it has little purpose
        except for making pretty bruse patterns. *lol* Anyway, after looking
        at some examples of armour from "Armies of Medieval Russia 750-1250" by
        David Nicolle, the first "plate" "Before the Rus', 9th C AD" has a
        Eastern Magyar cavalryman. And this is what is said about the "plate"
        "The advanced metallurgy of the Khazars and their Magyar allies is shown
        in many archaeological excavations, few of which are widely known
        outside Russia. In addition to helmits, mail hauberks and lamellar
        curasses, some of the Khazar-Magyar millitary elite wore plated lef and
        shoulder pieces reflecting Presian and Middle Eastern influence."
        what really garbed my attention was the lamellar curass and the plated
        shoulder pieces. The only problem really is did that stuff exist during
        the 13th cent. from what I know I've seen another shoulder plate placed
        around the 12th cent. however I've heard little to nothing about a
        curasses. It was though research that I found out about the
        "Cheshuichaty Panzir" on the Silk Road Armoury which says "In Russia,
        the scale garment, called "Cheshuichaty Panzir" (literally "Armour of
        Scales"), was a local style of armour that existed from time immemorial.
        It could be of a variety of styles, from vest to long coat, with
        differently shaped plates. In aproximately the thirteenth century, the
        Russians began to distinguish a subtype of scale armour by the use of a
        Turko-Mongol term -- Kuyak. There seem to be three types of Kuyak: One
        of overlapping large rectangular plates (smilar to the Chinese armour I
        call Reverse Brigandine), One of plates that allowed gapping where the
        leather backing showed through (similar in style to the Kolontar, maile
        and plates armour), and one where small, non-overlapping discs were
        attached to a backing. All three seem to have generally been a waist
        length cuirass of poncho or separate front and back construction, and to
        have generally been worn over a knee length Hauberk."

        I might just be confusing my self with some of the complexities
        of armour in history. <shrug> I hope you can shed some light Dmitriy.


        - thanks,
        Andrew
      • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
        Panzir means body armor (it s a general term). Cheshuichatyi means made of scales. It s not a well-defined term, like a kuyak, rather it is a general
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 11, 2001
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          "Panzir" means body armor (it's a general term).
          "Cheshuichatyi" means made of scales.

          It's not a well-defined term, like a kuyak, rather it is a general
          description for a body armor made of scales.

          The guy on the right in the picture wears something rather ahistorical, I am
          afraid.. the scales are far too big.

          What exactly are you researching? I can help you.

          -Dmitriy


          >From: "AKC7" <AKC7@...>
          > What does a "Cheshuichaty Panzir" look like?
          <snip>
          > something like this Kuyak, but longer?
          >http://members.nbci.com/Rushistory/armor/varanwar.jpg
          > {The guy with the big rectangle plates}

          >thanks,
          > Andrew

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        • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
          Sorry about the delay, had some computer problems, as well as haven t been at home to look a the boks much.. From your message, it seems you are doing 13th
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 15, 2001
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            Sorry about the delay, had some computer problems, as well as haven't been
            at home to look a the boks much..

            From your message, it seems you are doing 13th century and haven't settled
            on exact location yet?

            Anyway, lamellar cuirasses are most definitely period for 13th century. At
            the moment, I am translating an article about a 13th century armour workshop
            that was discovered in Gomel'. It contains a large variety of lamellar
            plates, as well as sections of maille fabric, tools, etc. As for the
            shoulder pieces, they are a bit problematic in that it hasn't really been
            proven that they were *shoulder* armour -- one of the books I have calls
            them "knee or shoulder protectors," another glosses over the exact function.
            It is clear, however, that they were used to cover some vulnerable joint,
            and until moer information comes to light, you are free to interpret them as
            you wish. The plates are attributed to Polovtsy (aka Cumans aka Kipchaks),
            which means 12th-mid13th centuries, and I *think* I remember reading that
            the Mongols used these too, so the upper bound can be extended.

            As for scale armours, go with what Norman (of the Silk Road) says -- he's
            right, there isn't really much that I can add.

            SCA-use wise -- I currently use a full maille hauberk and a steel lamellar
            cuirass. Before that, I used a leather lamellar vest, but I had to add a
            hidden plate over the sternum for wars -- them fiberglass pikes hurt! No
            such problem with the steel. Do not listen to naysayers, maille does
            provide protection in SCA combat, though it is not as useful as against
            steel. It is particularly good in the groin area. If you can afford it, I
            would reccomend that you use a rivetted or welded hauberk -- this would be
            more period, lighter (since the links are closed, they do not need to be as
            thick), and would look cooler than butted.

            I'll try to get some pics of my new armour up soon, but no promises.

            Ask if you have further questions.

            -Dmitriy

            >From: "AKC7" <AKC7@...>
            > Well actually I'm researching armour so that I may be able to move
            >on and start making my own to practice in with the SCA. The problem is,
            >well as everyone should known chain mail is great period, however since
            >we are not really trying to cut anyone in the SCA it has little purpose
            >except for making pretty bruse patterns. *lol*
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          • AKC7
            ... settled ... True, there are different parts of Russia which offer advantages in different areas, and well I m not quite sure where I would like to fit in.
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 17, 2001
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              > From your message, it seems you are doing 13th century and haven't
              settled
              > on exact location yet?

              True, there are different parts of Russia which offer advantages in
              different
              areas, and well I'm not quite sure where I would like to fit in.

              Okay, thanks that helped very much, the only thing I still am not
              sure about
              is a lamellar cuirass to the knees. Would it be one piece like a tunic
              or maille
              hauberk? or a lamellar vest with two extra pices that attach at the leg
              or
              waiste? OR is that specific to just scale? {goes to check norms
              page}



              > I'll try to get some pics of my new armour up soon, but no promises.

              WOW, awesome, cool, I think I would have a cow...... *lol*
              hope
              to see it.
            • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
              Here s to hoping that this message will actually go through the day I send it, not 2 days later.. ... If I may make a suggestion, setle on a subculture and
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 18, 2001
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                Here's to hoping that this message will actually go through the day I send
                it, not 2 days later..

                >True, there are different parts of Russia which offer advantages in
                >different areas, and well I'm not quite sure where I would like to fit in.
                >

                If I may make a suggestion, setle on a subculture and read up on history
                before you make a choice -- different cities make a world of difference.
                For myself, I am currently leaning towards Chernigov, due to its close
                relationship with the Black Klobuks (who had the coolest armour :).

                >Okay, thanks that helped very much, the only thing I still am not sure
                >about is a lamellar cuirass to the knees. Would it be one piece like a
                >tunic or maille hauberk? or a lamellar vest with two extra pices that
                >attach at the leg >or waiste? OR is that specific to just scale? {goes to
                >check norms page}

                The article I sent a link to a while ago (fine, fine, here it is:
                http://www.tgorod.go.ru/index.shtml?librar0027a ) documents a lamellar armor
                that reaches almost to the knees. Note that it's not Russian, but probably
                Polovets in origin.
                Largely based on iconographic evidence (few complete suits were found, most
                of the finds are separate plates) A. N. Kirpichnikov in "Drevnerusskoe
                oruzhie" describes lamellar armor as reaching to the hips (from practical
                experience, I think the waist more likely -- about an inch of difference,
                but very important on a skinny guy like myself). Scale armour also usually
                reaches to the waist -- but then continues to mid-thigh with much larger
                plates. Shoulders and upper arms are also protected by longer scales. It
                is not clear to me whether these were integrated with the body armour or if
                the skirt was separate but overlapping with the torso armour (the latter
                covering the top of the former).

                Dmitriy Shelomianin




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              • Kate Jones
                Heyo. Just noticed that there are a _few_ things in this list s files section on the Yahoo groups page... I added a picture of myself from the SIG meeting last
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 18, 2001
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                  Heyo.

                  Just noticed that there are a _few_ things in this list's files
                  section on the Yahoo groups page...

                  I added a picture of myself from the SIG meeting last Pennsic, in that
                  hat I borrowed from...someone. (Who was that again?)

                  If anyone else has anything they'd like to add, that'd be really
                  cool. Let's see what everyone's favorite Eastern European project is!

                  Kat'ryna
                  --
                  Kate Jones | I turned my world upside-down
                  kate@... | and that's how everything landed...
                • Jenn/Yana
                  ... For those who don t know how to get to our files on Yahoo, here is the URL for Kat ryna s picture: . You
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 18, 2001
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                    Kat'ryna wrote:

                    >I added a picture of myself from the SIG meeting last Pennsic, in that
                    >hat I borrowed from...someone. (Who was that again?)


                    For those who don't know how to get to our files on Yahoo, here is the URL
                    for Kat'ryna's picture: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sig/files/kate.jpg>.
                    You do not have to be logged in to access the files area.

                    I can't remember the name of the owner of the kokoshnik, but I know that
                    Mordak knows her (I'm such a big help).

                    --Yana
                  • AKC7
                    ... history ... difference. ... Where is Chernigov located? and by Black Kolbuks are you talking about the Black Hoods settlements or by the looks of it
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 19, 2001
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                      > If I may make a suggestion, setle on a subculture and read up on
                      history
                      > before you make a choice -- different cities make a world of
                      difference.
                      > For myself, I am currently leaning towards Chernigov, due to its close
                      > relationship with the Black Klobuks (who had the coolest armour :).

                      Where is Chernigov located? and by Black Kolbuks are you talking
                      about the "Black Hoods settlements" or by the looks of it what eastern
                      reference are you do you mean?



                      =
                      Andrew

                      P.S.- Sorry if this is recieved on the list more then once.
                    • AKC7
                      ... friend D. ... Wow, thanks! I didn t find the Treasures book, although I did find the Arms and Armor! and I was surprise how I didn t know he had a book
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 19, 2001
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                        > Check out books like "Treasures of Medieval Russia" for period
                        > representations or "Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era" by your
                        friend D.
                        > Nicolle for his interpretation of period representation.

                        Wow, thanks!
                        I didn't find the Treasures book, although I did find the Arms
                        and
                        Armor! and I was surprise how I didn't know he had a book like that,
                        and in fact it seems it would be a good read.



                        thank you,
                        Andrew
                      • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
                        Hi Andrew & the rest of the list, Chernigov is a bit North of Kiev.. here is a map of modern Uraine that will make it a bit clearer (sorry, didn t have time to
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 19, 2001
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                          Hi Andrew & the rest of the list,
                          Chernigov is a bit North of Kiev.. here is a map of modern Uraine that will
                          make it a bit clearer (sorry, didn't have time to look for a historical
                          map):
                          http://travel.kyiv.org/map/index.html

                          I've seen Black Klobucks translated also as "Black Caps", I guess "Black
                          Hoods" is valid too (anyone know what exactly a klobuk is, assuming it's not
                          the priest headdress thing?). It was a confederation of several tribes that
                          were previously defeated and dispersed by Polovtsy (Kumans, Kipchaks)
                          established by the Russian Princes as a buffer zone between them and the
                          Polovtsy. The three groups that formed most of it were Berendeys,
                          Pechenegs, and Torks.
                          The reason I say they had the coolest armour is because the awesome mask
                          helmets from Lipovcy and Kovali are thought to be theirs (not Polovets, as
                          thought earlier).



                          Dmitriy Shelomianin
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                        • Robert J Welenc
                          ... mask ... Polovets, as ... Awesome mask helmets? Are there pictures of those on the web, or can I get a better description? Alanna *********** Saying of
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 20, 2001
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                            >The reason I say they had the coolest armour is because the awesome
                            mask
                            >helmets from Lipovcy and Kovali are thought to be theirs (not
                            Polovets, as
                            >thought earlier).
                            >
                            Awesome mask helmets? Are there pictures of those on the web, or can
                            I get a better description?

                            Alanna
                            ***********
                            Saying of the day: Those who fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
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