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Period Veggies

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  • BanAvtai@aol.com
    I was startled to see a recipe mentioning cucumbers in a cookbook advertising itself as medieval recipes from Poland. Were cucumbers grown in period in Poland?
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 8 11:02 AM
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      I was startled to see a recipe mentioning cucumbers in a cookbook advertising itself as medieval recipes from Poland.

      Were cucumbers grown in period in Poland?

      Confuzzled but that's not unusual,

      Juliana
    • Art Plazewski
      Cucumber was known to Greeks and Romans . Cultivated by medieval Slavs - ergo - could be known to Poles... Art. ... From: BanAvtai@aol.com
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 8 11:25 AM
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        Cucumber was known to Greeks and Romans . Cultivated by medieval Slavs -
        ergo - could be known to Poles...
        Art.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: BanAvtai@... [mailto:BanAvtai@...]
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:03 AM
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [sig] Period Veggies


        I was startled to see a recipe mentioning cucumbers in a cookbook
        advertising itself as medieval recipes from Poland.

        Were cucumbers grown in period in Poland?

        Confuzzled but that's not unusual,

        Juliana



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Jenne Heise
        ... Yup, they were. They were grown most other places in period, too... they re mentioned in a lot of gardening texts. Archaeological citation:
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 8 11:35 AM
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          > I was startled to see a recipe mentioning cucumbers in a cookbook advertising itself as medieval recipes from Poland.
          > Were cucumbers grown in period in Poland?
          > Confuzzled but that's not unusual,
          > Juliana

          Yup, they were. They were grown most other places in period, too... they're mentioned in
          a lot of gardening texts.
          Archaeological citation:
          "Archaeobotanical Evidence for Food Plants in the Poland of the Piasts (10th-13th
          Centuries AD)", M. Polcyn. Biological Journal of Scotland, vol 46, no 4, p 533-537.

          The idea that cucumbers are somehow not period is one of the great SCA myths, and I
          consider it the SCA equivalent of 'medieval people spiced meat because it was spoiled',
          only worse because it's so easily disproved and no-one bothers to check it. *sigh*

          I happen to know the cookbook, though-- it would be Food and Drink in Medieval Poland,
          Dembinska and Weaver, right? The recipes are, well, let's say the process and
          documentation would not win Mr. Weaver high marks in an A&S competition.
          --
          Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
          disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
          "Are you finished? If you're finished, you have to put down the spoon."
        • Judwiga CzarnaPika Ze Smokza Jamy
          Dont forget that when the Italian Queen (or Princess, or noblewoman) Married the King of Poland, she brought her own kitchen and garden, with the gardeners,
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 8 12:42 PM
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            Dont forget that when the Italian Queen (or Princess, or noblewoman) Married the King of Poland, she brought her own kitchen and garden, with the gardeners, etc, to Poland with her! So, some veggies may not have done very well, but maybe some would have that we think as Italian!
            The recent Polish cooking book dealt with a lot of this!!
            Take care all!
            Judwiga

            ------Original Message------
            From: Art Plazewski <jbcp@...>
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: March 8, 2001 7:25:06 PM GMT
            Subject: RE: [sig] Period Veggies


            Cucumber was known to Greeks and Romans . Cultivated by medieval Slavs -
            ergo - could be known to Poles...
            Art.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: BanAvtai@... [mailto:BanAvtai@...]
            Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:03 AM
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [sig] Period Veggies


            I was startled to see a recipe mentioning cucumbers in a cookbook
            advertising itself as medieval recipes from Poland.

            Were cucumbers grown in period in Poland?

            Confuzzled but that's not unusual,

            Juliana



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Art Plazewski
            To all Poles known as wloszczyzna ( cabbage , leek , onion ,carrot , parsley root)... ;-) Art. PS Wlochy - means Italy in Polish. ... From: Judwiga
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 8 12:47 PM
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              To all Poles known as "wloszczyzna" ( cabbage , leek , onion ,carrot ,
              parsley root)... ;-)
              Art.
              PS
              Wlochy - means Italy in Polish.
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Judwiga CzarnaPika Ze Smokza Jamy [mailto:Judwiga@...]
              Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:43 PM
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [sig] Period Veggies

              Dont forget that when the Italian Queen (or Princess, or noblewoman) Married
              the King of Poland, she brought her own kitchen and garden, with the
              gardeners, etc, to Poland with her! So, some veggies may not have done very
              well, but maybe some would have that we think as Italian!
              The recent Polish cooking book dealt with a lot of this!!
              Take care all!
              Judwiga
            • Jenne Heise
              ... That would be Bona Sforza (very late period). And yes, she s a great time marker, because certain things are mentioned specifically as being imported by
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 8 1:00 PM
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                > Dont forget that when the Italian Queen (or Princess, or noblewoman) Married the King of Poland, she brought her own kitchen and garden, with the gardeners, etc, to Poland with her! So, some veggies may not have done very well, but maybe some would have that we think as Italian!

                That would be Bona Sforza (very late period). And yes, she's a great time
                marker, because certain things are mentioned specifically as being
                imported by Bona Sforza.

                I believe the archaeological source dates cucumbers to the 1300's at
                least.

                --
                Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                "Are you finished? If you're finished, you have to put down the spoon."
              • Jenne Heise
                ... Interesting! Though other sources suggest that those veggies were known in Poland before Bona Sforza, and it was certain other green leafy vegetables that
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 8 1:14 PM
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                  > To all Poles known as "wloszczyzna" ( cabbage , leek , onion ,carrot ,
                  > parsley root)... ;-)
                  > Art.
                  > PS
                  > Wlochy - means Italy in Polish.

                  Interesting! Though other sources suggest that those veggies were known in
                  Poland before Bona Sforza, and it was certain other green leafy vegetables
                  that were originally imported and referred to by those terms, but the
                  term's meaning -- doesn't it roughly mean 'soup greens'? -- got changed
                  over time as the contents of soups changed? Italian soups of period seemed
                  to be big on stewed and chopped gree vegetable puree...

                  --
                  Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                  disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                  "Are you finished? If you're finished, you have to put down the spoon."
                • Art Plazewski
                  That s right - it means soup greens - it is a common term - go get some wloszczyzna - and anybody knows what to get (in Poland). Although all those veggies
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 8 1:19 PM
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                    That's right - it means soup greens - it is a common term - "go get some
                    wloszczyzna" - and anybody knows what to get (in Poland).
                    Although all those veggies were known before Bona , it is possible that her
                    court popularized their use together...( my speculation ).
                    Art.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Jenne Heise [mailto:jenne@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 1:15 PM
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Period Veggies

                    > To all Poles known as "wloszczyzna" ( cabbage , leek , onion ,carrot ,
                    > parsley root)... ;-)
                    > Art.
                    > PS
                    > Wlochy - means Italy in Polish.

                    Interesting! Though other sources suggest that those veggies were known in
                    Poland before Bona Sforza, and it was certain other green leafy vegetables
                    that were originally imported and referred to by those terms, but the
                    term's meaning -- doesn't it roughly mean 'soup greens'? -- got changed
                    over time as the contents of soups changed? Italian soups of period seemed
                    to be big on stewed and chopped gree vegetable puree...

                    --
                    Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                    disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                    "Are you finished? If you're finished, you have to put down the spoon."



                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • BanAvtai@aol.com
                    My deepest appreciation to all those kind gentles who took the time to reply to my question. I have much to learn, Juliana
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 9 2:43 PM
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                      My deepest appreciation to all those kind gentles who took the time to reply to my question.

                      I have much to learn,

                      Juliana
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