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Re: [sig] Russian name help Part II

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  • V. J. Boitchenko
    Apparently unaccented o was pronounced in Russia as ah since the middle ages at least. The word Rozdestvo is spelled Razhdestvo in all old Russian Church
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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      Apparently unaccented "o" was pronounced in Russia as "ah" since the middle ages at least. The word Rozdestvo is spelled "Razhdestvo" in all old Russian Church Slavonic texts. And of course the most obvious is the word "Slavs" that in most Slavic languages is "Sloviene" as well as in Slovenian, Slovakian, Slovonian (with the word "Slovo" being the origin). Btw, Novgorodians identified themselves as the Slovenians of Novgorod. In Novgorod of that time as well as in modern Vologda and Archangelsk Oblast "oh" is still dominant. It is the Suzdal-Vladimir Russian "ah" that became so dominant in the west and universally.
       
      v
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: MHoll@...
      Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 9:45 AM
      Subject: Re: [sig] Russian name help Part II

      In a message dated 2/28/2001 12:50:40 AM Central Standard Time,
      rem@... writes:


      My Russian professor taught us that an un-accented "o" sounded more like
      a short English "a" as in "A-gain" (first "a").   If I'm recalling this
      correctly, he taught us that in no case was an un-accented "o"
      pronounced like what you've shown, "oh" which seems like a long "o" in
      English (such as in "Oh crap, have I been doing this wrong all these
      years....?!")

      Can you help straighten me out or enlighten me further (or befuddle me,
      but that's MY problem! :-)


      Your Russian professor was not wrong, of course, but (of course) he was
      talking about modern Russian.

      The reasons why I don't address the reduction of vowels according to the
      distance from the stressed syllable are:

      1) We don't know that it worked that way in medieval Russian. In fact, as
      Dmitry noted, spelling variations show that the substitutions did not quite
      correspond to modern pronunciations. If you want to be historically quite
      correct, you would need to do an extensive linguistic study of period
      sources. I'm not up to it.

      2) Russians do not perceive unstressed "o" as "a". The pronounciation is
      there, but the perception is not.

      3) It takes too long to explain the whole system, and the explanation would
      have to be reposted every few days.

      4) By tradition, Church Slavonic is read without any reduction in any of the
      vowels. Adopting this usage simplifies the pronunciation of names.

      5) Do you want to give all poor heralds a 20mn lecture on how to pronounce
      Russian names, or would you rather they pronounced it semi-correctly, without
      a long "i" in Ivan (ee-VAHN, *NOT* "AYE-van")?

      6) I'm too lazy to go the complicated route.

      Predslava.



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    • Robert J Welenc
      ... semi-correctly, ... Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]! We ve trained two different baronies how to pronounce Ivan -- now when someone
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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        >5) Do you want to give all poor heralds a 20mn lecture on how to
        >pronounce
        >Russian names, or would you rather they pronounced it
        semi-correctly,
        >without
        >a long "i" in Ivan (ee-VAHN, *NOT* "AYE-van")?
        >
        Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]! We've trained two
        different baronies how to pronounce "Ivan" -- now when someone calls
        my husband AYE-van, everyone in hearing choruses "That's ee-VAHN!"

        [1] Try "mac Mathghamhana".

        Alanna
        ***********
        Saying of the day: When I'm finally holding all the cards, why does
        everyone decide to play chess?
      • Mstislav Novgorodskii
        Never mind -- it was JUST a question. My desire to learn does NOT translate into a desire to change all poor heralds, and I certainly don t want to
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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          Never mind -- it was JUST a question. My desire to learn does NOT
          translate into a desire to change "all poor heralds," and I certainly
          don't want to "lecture" ANYone!

          Mstislav
          pulling head back into shell now



          MHoll@... wrote:

          > The reasons why I don't address the reduction of vowels according to
          > the
          > distance from the stressed syllable are:
          >
          > ... If you want to be historically quite
          > correct, you would need to do an extensive linguistic study of period
          > sources. I'm not up to it.
          >
          > ... 3.) It takes too long to explain the whole system, and the
          > explanation would
          > have to be reposted every few days.
          >
          > ... 5.) Do you want to give all poor heralds a 20mn lecture on how to
          > pronounce
          > Russian names, or would you rather they pronounced it semi-correctly,
          > without
          > a long "i" in Ivan (ee-VAHN, *NOT* "AYE-van")?
          >
          > 6) I'm too lazy to go the complicated route.
          >
          > Predslava.
          >
        • Patricia Hefner
          ... Ouch. I haven t a clue as to how to pronounce that one. Heck, in some of the names the prefix knocks the whole first syllable of the name out of the
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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            > Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]! We've trained two
            > different baronies how to pronounce "Ivan" -- now when someone calls
            > my husband AYE-van, everyone in hearing choruses "That's ee-VAHN!"
            >
            > [1] Try "mac Mathghamhana".
            >
            > Alanna
            > ***********

            Ouch. I haven't a clue as to how to pronounce that one. Heck, in some of the
            names the prefix knocks the whole first syllable of the name out of the
            pronunciation or something to that effect--i.e, the original spelling of the
            name anglicized as "MacLean".
            Or do I have the wrong name?? :-) I mundanely have MacLeans in my ancestry,
            so it's entirely possible that I've just got that name on the brain.

            Isabelle
            patricia.hefner@...
            http://scholar76.tripod.com/castle2/
          • Robert J Welenc
            ... Well, h usually means backspace&delete (except when it doesn t...) So you take out th , gh , and mh , leaving you with mac Maaana (look, a
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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              At 05:51 PM 3/8/01 -0600, you wrote:
              >
              >> Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]!
              >> [1] Try "mac Mathghamhana".
              >
              >Ouch. I haven't a clue as to how to pronounce that one.

              Well, 'h' usually means 'backspace&delete' (except when it
              doesn't...) So you take out 'th', 'gh', and 'mh', leaving you with
              'mac Maaana' (look, a Hawaiian Irishman!) anglicized as 'mac Mahon'
              and pronounced 'mac Man'.

              >name anglicized as "MacLean".

              'mac Giolla Eain'

              See what I mean? And to drag it back to Russian and on topic,
              transliterations from Cyrillic don't muck about with letters that may
              or may not be pronounced depending on which other letters they follow
              or precede!

              Alanna
              ***********
              Saying of the day: When I'm finally holding all the cards, why does
              everyone decide to play chess?
            • MHoll@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/8/2001 11:34:06 AM Central Standard Time, ... True. As far as figuring out the basics. But then... We ve trained two ... Hopefully, my
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 13, 2001
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                In a message dated 3/8/2001 11:34:06 AM Central Standard Time,
                rjwelenc@... writes:


                Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]!  

                True. As far as figuring out the basics. But then...

                We've trained two

                different baronies how to pronounce "Ivan" -- now when someone calls
                my husband AYE-van, everyone in hearing choruses "That's ee-VAHN!"

                Hopefully, my students will do the same thing. I'm fantasising about hordes
                of Russian majors and minors yelling at the CNN anchors: "That's ee-VAHN" and
                "That's vlah-DEE-meer".

                *****************************
                Predslava Vydrina
                Per fess embattled azure and gules, two otters passant or.
                Russian History Trivia Page
                (http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html)
              • MHoll@aol.com
                In a message dated 3/8/2001 6:25:00 PM Central Standard Time, rem@montana.com ... Hey, if you can t get your head out of the shell on this list, where else?
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 13, 2001
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                  In a message dated 3/8/2001 6:25:00 PM Central Standard Time, rem@...
                  writes:


                  Mstislav
                  pulling head back into shell now


                  Hey, if you can't get your head out of the shell on this list, where else?

                  Predslava.
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