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Russian name help Part II

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  • AKC7
    Thanks for your guys help last time. I ve gone to the drawing board again and I think I found something I m happy with, well maybe. Predslava, you do have a
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 25, 2001
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      Thanks for your guys help last time. I've gone to the drawing board
      again and I think I found something I'm happy with, well maybe.
      Predslava, you do have a point, and for the most part I did follow you
      guidance. I'm just wondering how to pronounce Dragoslav? is it
      like.... Dra-go-slav or Drag-o-slav?

      I'm sure I'll use a name with "Dra", so I'm kind of near the final
      stages to completing my name. Or so I hope.


      Thanks again,
      Andrew
    • MHoll@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/25/2001 11:18:20 PM Central Standard Time, ... [drah-goh-SLAHV] Predslava Vydrina
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 27, 2001
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        In a message dated 2/25/2001 11:18:20 PM Central Standard Time,
        AKC7@... writes:


        I'm just wondering how to pronounce Dragoslav?


        [drah-goh-SLAHV]

        Predslava Vydrina

      • Mstislav Novgorodskii
        ... Greetings: My Russian professor taught us that an un-accented o sounded more like a short English a as in A-gain (first a ). If I m recalling this
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 27, 2001
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          MHoll@... wrote:

          > In a message dated 2/25/2001 11:18:20 PM Central Standard Time,
          > AKC7@... writes:
          >
          >
          >
          >> I'm just wondering how to pronounce Dragoslav?
          >
          > [drah-goh-SLAHV]
          >
          > Predslava Vydrina
          >

          Greetings:

          My Russian professor taught us that an un-accented "o" sounded more like
          a short English "a" as in "A-gain" (first "a"). If I'm recalling this
          correctly, he taught us that in no case was an un-accented "o"
          pronounced like what you've shown, "oh" which seems like a long "o" in
          English (such as in "Oh crap, have I been doing this wrong all these
          years....?!")

          Can you help straighten me out or enlighten me further (or befuddle me,
          but that's MY problem! :-)

          Mstislav
        • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
          ... I think ah and oh in Predslava s notation meant a short vowel (h isn t pronounced), so it s not oh as in ou, but more like o in more. The
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 28, 2001
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            Mstislav wrote:
            >Greetings:
            >
            >My Russian professor taught us that an un-accented "o" sounded more like a
            >short English "a" as in "A-gain" (first "a"). If I'm recalling this
            > >correctly, he taught us that in no case was an un-accented "o"
            > >pronounced like what you've shown, "oh" which seems like a long "o" in
            > >English (such as in "Oh crap, have I been doing this wrong all these
            > >years....?!")
            >
            >Can you help straighten me out or enlighten me further (or befuddle me,
            > >but that's MY problem! :-)
            >
            >Mstislav

            I think "ah" and "oh" in Predslava's notation meant a short vowel (h isn't
            pronounced), so it's not "oh" as in ou, but more like o in more.

            The substitution of "a" for "o" is an urban (Moscow) accent, in a lot of
            villages I've been to they say "oh" as in "oh my", which is generally a
            tell-tale sign of being "from the province." It's not "a" as in "again"
            (unless your English pronounciation is different than mine), but more like
            either a in "llama."

            I seem to remember reading that residents of ancient Novgorod also made this
            substitution (maybe it's a sign of being a major city? ;). This can be seen
            by the consistently different spellings in manuscipts and birch-bark letters
            produced in Novgorod and elsewhere (according to Artamonov, iirc).

            -Dmitriy Shelomianin
            _________________________________________________________________
            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/28/2001 12:50:40 AM Central Standard Time, ... Your Russian professor was not wrong, of course, but (of course) he was talking about
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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              In a message dated 2/28/2001 12:50:40 AM Central Standard Time,
              rem@... writes:


              My Russian professor taught us that an un-accented "o" sounded more like
              a short English "a" as in "A-gain" (first "a").   If I'm recalling this
              correctly, he taught us that in no case was an un-accented "o"
              pronounced like what you've shown, "oh" which seems like a long "o" in
              English (such as in "Oh crap, have I been doing this wrong all these
              years....?!")

              Can you help straighten me out or enlighten me further (or befuddle me,
              but that's MY problem! :-)


              Your Russian professor was not wrong, of course, but (of course) he was
              talking about modern Russian.

              The reasons why I don't address the reduction of vowels according to the
              distance from the stressed syllable are:

              1) We don't know that it worked that way in medieval Russian. In fact, as
              Dmitry noted, spelling variations show that the substitutions did not quite
              correspond to modern pronunciations. If you want to be historically quite
              correct, you would need to do an extensive linguistic study of period
              sources. I'm not up to it.

              2) Russians do not perceive unstressed "o" as "a". The pronounciation is
              there, but the perception is not.

              3) It takes too long to explain the whole system, and the explanation would
              have to be reposted every few days.

              4) By tradition, Church Slavonic is read without any reduction in any of the
              vowels. Adopting this usage simplifies the pronunciation of names.

              5) Do you want to give all poor heralds a 20mn lecture on how to pronounce
              Russian names, or would you rather they pronounced it semi-correctly, without
              a long "i" in Ivan (ee-VAHN, *NOT* "AYE-van")?

              6) I'm too lazy to go the complicated route.

              Predslava.

            • V. J. Boitchenko
              Apparently unaccented o was pronounced in Russia as ah since the middle ages at least. The word Rozdestvo is spelled Razhdestvo in all old Russian Church
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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                Apparently unaccented "o" was pronounced in Russia as "ah" since the middle ages at least. The word Rozdestvo is spelled "Razhdestvo" in all old Russian Church Slavonic texts. And of course the most obvious is the word "Slavs" that in most Slavic languages is "Sloviene" as well as in Slovenian, Slovakian, Slovonian (with the word "Slovo" being the origin). Btw, Novgorodians identified themselves as the Slovenians of Novgorod. In Novgorod of that time as well as in modern Vologda and Archangelsk Oblast "oh" is still dominant. It is the Suzdal-Vladimir Russian "ah" that became so dominant in the west and universally.
                 
                v
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: MHoll@...
                Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 9:45 AM
                Subject: Re: [sig] Russian name help Part II

                In a message dated 2/28/2001 12:50:40 AM Central Standard Time,
                rem@... writes:


                My Russian professor taught us that an un-accented "o" sounded more like
                a short English "a" as in "A-gain" (first "a").   If I'm recalling this
                correctly, he taught us that in no case was an un-accented "o"
                pronounced like what you've shown, "oh" which seems like a long "o" in
                English (such as in "Oh crap, have I been doing this wrong all these
                years....?!")

                Can you help straighten me out or enlighten me further (or befuddle me,
                but that's MY problem! :-)


                Your Russian professor was not wrong, of course, but (of course) he was
                talking about modern Russian.

                The reasons why I don't address the reduction of vowels according to the
                distance from the stressed syllable are:

                1) We don't know that it worked that way in medieval Russian. In fact, as
                Dmitry noted, spelling variations show that the substitutions did not quite
                correspond to modern pronunciations. If you want to be historically quite
                correct, you would need to do an extensive linguistic study of period
                sources. I'm not up to it.

                2) Russians do not perceive unstressed "o" as "a". The pronounciation is
                there, but the perception is not.

                3) It takes too long to explain the whole system, and the explanation would
                have to be reposted every few days.

                4) By tradition, Church Slavonic is read without any reduction in any of the
                vowels. Adopting this usage simplifies the pronunciation of names.

                5) Do you want to give all poor heralds a 20mn lecture on how to pronounce
                Russian names, or would you rather they pronounced it semi-correctly, without
                a long "i" in Ivan (ee-VAHN, *NOT* "AYE-van")?

                6) I'm too lazy to go the complicated route.

                Predslava.



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              • Robert J Welenc
                ... semi-correctly, ... Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]! We ve trained two different baronies how to pronounce Ivan -- now when someone
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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                  >5) Do you want to give all poor heralds a 20mn lecture on how to
                  >pronounce
                  >Russian names, or would you rather they pronounced it
                  semi-correctly,
                  >without
                  >a long "i" in Ivan (ee-VAHN, *NOT* "AYE-van")?
                  >
                  Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]! We've trained two
                  different baronies how to pronounce "Ivan" -- now when someone calls
                  my husband AYE-van, everyone in hearing choruses "That's ee-VAHN!"

                  [1] Try "mac Mathghamhana".

                  Alanna
                  ***********
                  Saying of the day: When I'm finally holding all the cards, why does
                  everyone decide to play chess?
                • Mstislav Novgorodskii
                  Never mind -- it was JUST a question. My desire to learn does NOT translate into a desire to change all poor heralds, and I certainly don t want to
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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                    Never mind -- it was JUST a question. My desire to learn does NOT
                    translate into a desire to change "all poor heralds," and I certainly
                    don't want to "lecture" ANYone!

                    Mstislav
                    pulling head back into shell now



                    MHoll@... wrote:

                    > The reasons why I don't address the reduction of vowels according to
                    > the
                    > distance from the stressed syllable are:
                    >
                    > ... If you want to be historically quite
                    > correct, you would need to do an extensive linguistic study of period
                    > sources. I'm not up to it.
                    >
                    > ... 3.) It takes too long to explain the whole system, and the
                    > explanation would
                    > have to be reposted every few days.
                    >
                    > ... 5.) Do you want to give all poor heralds a 20mn lecture on how to
                    > pronounce
                    > Russian names, or would you rather they pronounced it semi-correctly,
                    > without
                    > a long "i" in Ivan (ee-VAHN, *NOT* "AYE-van")?
                    >
                    > 6) I'm too lazy to go the complicated route.
                    >
                    > Predslava.
                    >
                  • Patricia Hefner
                    ... Ouch. I haven t a clue as to how to pronounce that one. Heck, in some of the names the prefix knocks the whole first syllable of the name out of the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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                      > Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]! We've trained two
                      > different baronies how to pronounce "Ivan" -- now when someone calls
                      > my husband AYE-van, everyone in hearing choruses "That's ee-VAHN!"
                      >
                      > [1] Try "mac Mathghamhana".
                      >
                      > Alanna
                      > ***********

                      Ouch. I haven't a clue as to how to pronounce that one. Heck, in some of the
                      names the prefix knocks the whole first syllable of the name out of the
                      pronunciation or something to that effect--i.e, the original spelling of the
                      name anglicized as "MacLean".
                      Or do I have the wrong name?? :-) I mundanely have MacLeans in my ancestry,
                      so it's entirely possible that I've just got that name on the brain.

                      Isabelle
                      patricia.hefner@...
                      http://scholar76.tripod.com/castle2/
                    • Robert J Welenc
                      ... Well, h usually means backspace&delete (except when it doesn t...) So you take out th , gh , and mh , leaving you with mac Maaana (look, a
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 8, 2001
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                        At 05:51 PM 3/8/01 -0600, you wrote:
                        >
                        >> Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]!
                        >> [1] Try "mac Mathghamhana".
                        >
                        >Ouch. I haven't a clue as to how to pronounce that one.

                        Well, 'h' usually means 'backspace&delete' (except when it
                        doesn't...) So you take out 'th', 'gh', and 'mh', leaving you with
                        'mac Maaana' (look, a Hawaiian Irishman!) anglicized as 'mac Mahon'
                        and pronounced 'mac Man'.

                        >name anglicized as "MacLean".

                        'mac Giolla Eain'

                        See what I mean? And to drag it back to Russian and on topic,
                        transliterations from Cyrillic don't muck about with letters that may
                        or may not be pronounced depending on which other letters they follow
                        or precede!

                        Alanna
                        ***********
                        Saying of the day: When I'm finally holding all the cards, why does
                        everyone decide to play chess?
                      • MHoll@aol.com
                        In a message dated 3/8/2001 11:34:06 AM Central Standard Time, ... True. As far as figuring out the basics. But then... We ve trained two ... Hopefully, my
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 13, 2001
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                          In a message dated 3/8/2001 11:34:06 AM Central Standard Time,
                          rjwelenc@... writes:


                          Russian names are *easy*, compared to Gaelic[1]!  

                          True. As far as figuring out the basics. But then...

                          We've trained two

                          different baronies how to pronounce "Ivan" -- now when someone calls
                          my husband AYE-van, everyone in hearing choruses "That's ee-VAHN!"

                          Hopefully, my students will do the same thing. I'm fantasising about hordes
                          of Russian majors and minors yelling at the CNN anchors: "That's ee-VAHN" and
                          "That's vlah-DEE-meer".

                          *****************************
                          Predslava Vydrina
                          Per fess embattled azure and gules, two otters passant or.
                          Russian History Trivia Page
                          (http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html)
                        • MHoll@aol.com
                          In a message dated 3/8/2001 6:25:00 PM Central Standard Time, rem@montana.com ... Hey, if you can t get your head out of the shell on this list, where else?
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 13, 2001
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                            In a message dated 3/8/2001 6:25:00 PM Central Standard Time, rem@...
                            writes:


                            Mstislav
                            pulling head back into shell now


                            Hey, if you can't get your head out of the shell on this list, where else?

                            Predslava.
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