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Re: [sig] Re: Vlachs (long)

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  • catweasle
    Dear Alastair, Thank you for the erudite, detailed and gentlemanly reply. Your knowledge of these things is astounding. Yes, I visited the town you mention -
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 2, 2000
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      Dear Alastair,
      Thank you for the erudite, detailed and gentlemanly reply. Your knowledge
      of these things is astounding. Yes, I visited the town you mention -
      Valas'ske Mezir'ic'i over twenty years ago during the Communist period. In
      fairness to them the town was spotless and they had built a typical Vlach
      village, [a folk museum rather like Skansen in Stockholm.] I have Moravian
      friends who live in Vsetin which is only about twenty miles from the Vlach
      cultural centre.


      It is interesting that the Vlachs are a subject of recurrent debate... but
      like you I find these little pockets of ethnicity fascinating.

      Of great interest to me also was the fact of the similarity between the name
      Vlach and the Czech name for Italians. I wonder if etymologically it could
      be that the Italians lived on the other side of the [southern] mountains and
      so the sobriquet 'Vlach' [mountain men,] was appropriate?
      Thank you for the information so patiently and generously given and also for
      the websites to follow up.

      Sincerely,

      Catweasle.
    • Alastair Millar
      Catweasle wrote... ... You re most welcome... but I confess that you caught me on a good day, I m not nearly so gentlemanly IRL! (or on the list most of the
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 3, 2000
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        Catweasle wrote...

        >Thank you for the erudite, detailed and gentlemanly reply.

        You're most welcome... but I confess that you caught me on a good day, I'm
        not nearly so gentlemanly IRL! (or on the list most of the time, come to
        think of it...)

        >Your knowledge of these things is astounding.
        [shakes head vigorously]
        You're kind, but I have some advantages - like living here with a Czech wife
        I can ask questions of, and the fact that I both work in the heritage
        industry and translate a lot of historical and archaeological material, much
        (most) of which has not appeared previously in English. On the other hand,
        what little I know generally stops at the border as a result, and I'm not an
        SCA member... but you can't have everything!!!

        Do you get out to this part of the world often? I haven't visited the
        Wallachian Open-Air Museum in Roz'nov pod Radhos'tem - mainly because it's
        at the opposite end of the country and I have to rely on public transport -
        but (to crib from the back of a tourist map I translated a couple of years
        ago) it currently includes:

        ""
        The wooden township: a collection of vernacular buildings, documenting the
        lifestyle and standards of living of burgesses, bailiffs and craftsmen.
        The mill dale: an area of technical water-powered structures, including a
        mill, a fulling mill, a water-powered sawmill, an oil plant and a water
        hammer.
        The Wallachian village: a collection of residential and other buildings,
        characterising the lifestyle, economy, employment and homes of the
        inhabitants of a Wallachian village.
        ""

        FWIW the Czech word for "open-air muzeum" is <skanzen>!


        >It is interesting that the Vlachs are a subject of recurrent debate...
        >but like you I find these little pockets of ethnicity fascinating.

        There is, unfortunately, debate about whether they arrived during the
        occupation of the land by the Slavs or later (cf your Britannica quote),
        whether they came from Romania or elsewhere, and whether or not they are
        actually related to the Romanies... And of course all questions of
        race/ethnicity are controversial here...

        I think your point about "vlach" coming to be applied to Italians is
        probably right - thinking of Alpine transhumance in particular.

        >Thank you for the information so patiently and generously
        >given and also for the websites to follow up.

        My pleasure - after all, the SIG exists so that people can "share what they
        know"...

        Cheers!

        Alastair

        ---------------------------
        Alastair Millar, BSc(Hons)
        Consultancy and translation for the heritage industry
        e-mail: alastair@..., http://www.skriptorium.cz
        P.O.Box 685, CZ 111 21 Prague 1, Czech Republic
      • Robert J Welenc
        Greetings, gentle cousins! I am looking for documentation for the Romanian form of Elizabeth and am not finding a whole lot of information on Romanian names.
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 3, 2000
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          Greetings, gentle cousins!

          I am looking for documentation for the Romanian form of 'Elizabeth'
          and am not finding a whole lot of information on Romanian names.

          The client believes it to be 'Elisabeta', which seems to be a logical
          form.

          Alanna
          ***********
          Saying of the day:
          Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
        • bmccoy@chapelperilous.net
          ... I ve seen both Elisabeta and Elisaveta used in reference to Sucevita Monastery in Romania (near Punta, at the edge of the Carpathinas) and a 16th
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 3, 2000
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            On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Robert J Welenc wrote:

            > I am looking for documentation for the Romanian form of 'Elizabeth'
            > and am not finding a whole lot of information on Romanian names.
            >
            > The client believes it to be 'Elisabeta', which seems to be a logical
            > form.

            I've seen both 'Elisabeta' and 'Elisaveta' used in reference to Sucevita
            Monastery in Romania (near Punta, at the edge of the Carpathinas) and a
            16th century woman of that name to whom the monastery was dedicated to --
            she apparently murdered her husband so her two sones could inherit the
            throne.

            Check out this:

            http://www.rotravel.com/romania/monasteries/sucev.htm

            That should get you started.

            Istvan
            http://www.chapelperilous.net
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Life is a hospital in which every patient is possessed by the desire to
            change his bed.
            -- Charles Baudelaire
          • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
            The series of Teach Yourself Books now has a volume called Beginner s Russian Script , which teaches the basics of reading Cyrillic (printed and
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 24, 2000
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              The series of "Teach Yourself Books" now has a volume called "Beginner's
              Russian Script", which teaches the basics of reading Cyrillic (printed and
              handwritten) one step at a time. I've always had trouble with Cyrillic,
              and the book has helped me already, even though I've only had it a few
              days. I'd recommend it for anyone wanting to learn a language (such as
              Russian) that uses Cyrillic, or for anyone wanting to teach a class on the
              subject. It's in paperback, and costs only $12.95. (ISBN 0-658-00950-8)

              --Walraven
            • Britta Parsons
              The Teach Yourself series is pretty good; anyone know if there is an equivalent for learning Old Church Slavonic? Vasilisa Myshkina
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 24, 2000
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                The "Teach Yourself" series is pretty good; anyone know if there is an
                equivalent for learning Old Church Slavonic?

                Vasilisa Myshkina
                ________________________________________________________________
                GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
                Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
                Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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              • MHoll@aol.com
                In a message dated 11/24/2000 9:35:08 PM Central Standard Time, ... No, I think they re only for modern languages. Predslava.
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 24, 2000
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                  In a message dated 11/24/2000 9:35:08 PM Central Standard Time,
                  vasalisa@... writes:

                  > The "Teach Yourself" series is pretty good; anyone know if there is an
                  > equivalent for learning Old Church Slavonic?

                  No, I think they're only for modern languages.

                  Predslava.
                • timbo@marcon.org
                  A friend sent me this. HOT GAME OF THE DAY European Wars: Cossacks Go to war in 16th century Europe http://cgi.zdnet.com/slink?62734:1743488
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 25, 2000
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                    A friend sent me this.

                    HOT GAME OF THE DAY
                    European Wars: Cossacks
                    Go to war in 16th century Europe
                    http://cgi.zdnet.com/slink?62734:1743488
                  • V. J. Boitchenko
                    I know there is a Church Slavonic E-Tutor web site at http://www.orthodoxepubsoc.org/ I do not know if it is any good since I speak Russian and have a good
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 26, 2000
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                      I know there is a Church Slavonic E-Tutor web site at
                       
                       
                      I do not know if it is any good since I speak Russian and have a good command of Church Slavonic and the Tutor starts from the very basics, and as far as I understand, it is targeted to English speaking audience. I heard that it is rather good though.
                       
                      There are also various resources on the internet where you can download fonts for Church Slavonic and Slavonic style English fonts.
                       
                      yours,
                       
                      v
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 10:30 PM
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Russian Script

                      The "Teach Yourself" series is pretty good; anyone know if there is an
                      equivalent for learning Old Church Slavonic?

                      Vasilisa Myshkina
                      ________________________________________________________________
                      GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
                      Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
                      Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
                      http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

                    • V. J. Boitchenko
                      Dmitriy! To the best of my knowledge the Old Russian has never been codified. Besides that, there would be different stages in the development of the Old
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 26, 2000
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                        Dmitriy!
                         
                        To the best of my knowledge the Old Russian has never been codified. Besides that, there would be different stages in the development of the Old Russian and it would be very difficult to do.
                         
                        As to Church Slavonic, there are all kinds of synodal editions and their translations into English. I can only suggest that you browse the web or if you are on the East Coast by any chance you can check at any of the three Russian seminaries whichever one is closest to you. Many church websites will provide various links for book stores as well.
                         
                        I would never recommend anyone with no knowledge of Russian or any other Slavic language to try more than reading rules.
                         
                        Best wishes,
                         
                        v
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 7:08 PM
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Russian Script

                        I looked at the site http://www.orthodoxepubsoc.org/ and the descrption says
                        that it only teaches how to pronounce prayers and such, but does not teach
                        vocabularly or grammar.  Probably useful for american orthodox, but not for
                        us..
                        Do you know by any chance a good church slavonic tutorial or textbook in
                        (modern) Russian?  Russian is my native language, print or internet is
                        equally good.  I found this: http://chslav.hypermart.net/ while writing the
                        e-mail, has anyone used the stuff there?

                        Same question, but for Old Russian (Drevnerusskiy)?

                        -Dmitriy
                           Shelomianin(SCA)
                           Ryaboy (Mundanely)



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                      • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
                        I looked at the site http://www.orthodoxepubsoc.org/ and the descrption says that it only teaches how to pronounce prayers and such, but does not teach
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 26, 2000
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                          I looked at the site http://www.orthodoxepubsoc.org/ and the descrption says
                          that it only teaches how to pronounce prayers and such, but does not teach
                          vocabularly or grammar. Probably useful for american orthodox, but not for
                          us..
                          Do you know by any chance a good church slavonic tutorial or textbook in
                          (modern) Russian? Russian is my native language, print or internet is
                          equally good. I found this: http://chslav.hypermart.net/ while writing the
                          e-mail, has anyone used the stuff there?

                          Same question, but for Old Russian (Drevnerusskiy)?

                          -Dmitriy
                          Shelomianin(SCA)
                          Ryaboy (Mundanely)



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