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Re: Jews as heretics

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  • Alastair Millar
    Jadwiga wrote... ... Revelation 7:3-8: the servants of God who are sealed upon their foreheads are 12000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel... (and
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 4, 2000
      Jadwiga wrote...

      >By the time I became a Catholic in 1984, Jews were
      >no longer considered heretics but still God's Chosen
      >People,

      Revelation 7:3-8: the "servants of God" who are "sealed upon their
      foreheads" are 12000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel... (and are
      distinct from the "great multitude... from every nation, from all tribes and
      peoples and tongues")

      >since 'God does not go back on his promises.'

      Paul's Letter to the Romans - chapters 10 & 11 are particularly relevant in
      this context. The latter starts "I ask, then has God rejected his people? By
      no means!" (11:1) and also contains "... but as regards election they are
      beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God
      are irrevocable." (11:28-29). Some complex thinking in Romans that I shan't
      even attempt to repeat here [pause as everyone sighs with relief...]

      >I suspect the idea was first broached by John 23 but
      >rammed through into doctrine by John Paul II.

      I think that's right - hence JP2's managing to go to Israel recently without
      too much fuss... I *think* (and I am certainly no expert) that this was an
      effort to shift some Medieval thinking out of the way and get back to the
      New Testament. The sort of thing, in fact, that has led some Catholic
      extremists to regard the current Pope as a heretic!!!

      Cheers!

      Alastair
    • Jenne Heise
      ... Ask your local Roman Catholic theologian, or look it up in the Catholic encyclopedia (the printed one: the online one is circa 1910!), but apparently,
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 4, 2000
        >According to the Church Dog=
        > ma the promise was fulfilled. However, the Church may recognize the relatio=
        > nship of modern Jews as descendants of the tribes of Israel and pious peopl=
        > e who try to keep traditions of their ancestors, but never as the same Old =
        > Church of Israel described in the books known as the Old Testament. In othe=
        > r words, if Rome had ever stated what you seem to be trying to get at, it w=
        > ould mean that the promise had never been fulfilled and thus Catholics woul=
        > d be better off simply converting to whichever branch of Judaism they choos=
        > e.

        Ask your local Roman Catholic theologian, or look it up in the Catholic
        encyclopedia (the printed one: the online one is circa 1910!), but
        apparently, Catholic theology now holds that the New Testament does not
        wipe out the Old and that Judaism is now a perfectly good religion _for
        Jews only_. Conversion to Judaism would be bad, since the Old Testament is
        talking about primarily Jews by birth. The New Covenant is for non-Jews,
        apparently; the Old Covenant, with the Jews, still holds. *Shrug* I'm not
        a theologian. But I did look it up, once upon a time, and I was a Roman
        Catholic.

        -- Jadwiga
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