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Jews as heretics

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  • Jeff Heilveil
    Actually, we are considered heretics (unless the pope ahs recently forgiven us) as we had the choice of becoming Christian and decided against it. Then again,
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 3, 2000
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      Actually, we are considered heretics (unless the pope ahs recently
      forgiven us) as we had the choice of becoming Christian and decided
      against it. Then again, the early episodes of Jews hunting Christians
      (like Apostle Paul used to) didn't help our case...

      _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

      To fight Honorably, to Love deeply, and to Cook in great volumes. These
      are man's finest virtues.
      _______________________________________________________________________________
      Jeffrey Heilveil M.S. Ld. Bogdan de la Brasov, C.W.
      Department of Entomology A Bear's paw and base vert on field argent
      University of Illinois
      heilveil@...
      office: (217) 244-5115
      home: (217) 355-5702
      ICQ: 34699710
      _______________________________________________________________________________
    • V. Boitchenko
      I am afraid, you are right even though Pope of Rome has authority in the matters of faith only within the Roman Church. The Orthodox would rather use the word
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 3, 2000
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        I am afraid, you are right even though Pope of Rome has authority in the matters of faith only within the Roman Church.
        The Orthodox would rather use the word "heterodox" applied Muslims, all Judaic confessions and any Christian churches. It actually does not imply a heresy (false teaching) but rather a belief in God that does not have the fullness of faith. In other words it is incomplete. The words heresy is generally applied to false teachings within the Doctrine but not outside. It will not apply to (let's say) Buddhists since those will be considered "pagans."
         
        v
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:49 AM
        Subject: [sig] Jews as heretics

        Actually, we are considered heretics (unless the pope ahs recently
        forgiven us) as we had the choice of becoming Christian and decided
        against it.  Then again, the early episodes of Jews hunting Christians
        (like Apostle Paul used to) didn't help our case...

        _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        To fight Honorably, to Love deeply, and to Cook in great volumes.  These
        are man's finest virtues.
        _______________________________________________________________________________
        Jeffrey Heilveil M.S.                  Ld. Bogdan de la Brasov, C.W.
        Department of Entomology      A Bear's paw and base vert on field argent
        University of Illinois                       
        heilveil@...                      
        office: (217) 244-5115
        home: (217) 355-5702                  
        ICQ: 34699710                   
        _______________________________________________________________________________


      • Jenne Heise
        ... By the time I became a Catholic in 1984, Jews were no longer considered heretics but still God s Chosen People, since God does not go back on his
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 3, 2000
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          > I am afraid, you are right even though Pope of Rome has authority in the ma=
          > tters of faith only within the Roman Church.
          >

          By the time I became a Catholic in 1984, Jews were no longer considered
          heretics but still God's Chosen People, since 'God does not go back on his
          promises.' I suspect the idea was first broached by John 23 but rammed
          through into doctrine by John Paul II.

          -- Jadwiga
        • V. Boitchenko
          I really never heard of this as I actually never heard that the Jews ever ceased to be the God s Chosen People according to any doctrine be that Eastern or
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 3, 2000
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            I really never heard of this as I actually never heard that the Jews ever ceased to be the God's Chosen People according to any doctrine be that Eastern or Western. There is actually no difference in the way Latin and Byzantine Churches looked at it. There is unquestionable recognition of the Old Testament and the Old Testament Church of Israel. According to the Church Dogma the promise was fulfilled. However, the Church may recognize the relationship of modern Jews as descendants of the tribes of Israel and pious people who try to keep traditions of their ancestors, but never as the same Old Church of Israel described in the books known as the Old Testament. In other words, if Rome had ever stated what you seem to be trying to get at, it would mean that the promise had never been fulfilled and thus Catholics would be better off simply converting to whichever branch of Judaism they choose.
             
            Please do not get me wrong here, that is my limited understanding of something that I am actually very ignorant about. I do not mean to start a theological debate here.
             
            Interestingly, there was a heresy known as "the Heresy of the Jews" (Eres Zhidovstvuischih) in medieval Novgorod that had nothing to do with the Jews whatsoever.
             
            v
            By the time I became a Catholic in 1984, Jews were no longer considered
            heretics but still God's Chosen People, since 'God does not go back on his
            promises.' I suspect the idea was first broached by John 23 but rammed
            through into doctrine by John Paul II.

            -- Jadwiga
          • Alastair Millar
            Jadwiga wrote... ... Revelation 7:3-8: the servants of God who are sealed upon their foreheads are 12000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel... (and
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 4, 2000
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              Jadwiga wrote...

              >By the time I became a Catholic in 1984, Jews were
              >no longer considered heretics but still God's Chosen
              >People,

              Revelation 7:3-8: the "servants of God" who are "sealed upon their
              foreheads" are 12000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel... (and are
              distinct from the "great multitude... from every nation, from all tribes and
              peoples and tongues")

              >since 'God does not go back on his promises.'

              Paul's Letter to the Romans - chapters 10 & 11 are particularly relevant in
              this context. The latter starts "I ask, then has God rejected his people? By
              no means!" (11:1) and also contains "... but as regards election they are
              beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God
              are irrevocable." (11:28-29). Some complex thinking in Romans that I shan't
              even attempt to repeat here [pause as everyone sighs with relief...]

              >I suspect the idea was first broached by John 23 but
              >rammed through into doctrine by John Paul II.

              I think that's right - hence JP2's managing to go to Israel recently without
              too much fuss... I *think* (and I am certainly no expert) that this was an
              effort to shift some Medieval thinking out of the way and get back to the
              New Testament. The sort of thing, in fact, that has led some Catholic
              extremists to regard the current Pope as a heretic!!!

              Cheers!

              Alastair
            • Jenne Heise
              ... Ask your local Roman Catholic theologian, or look it up in the Catholic encyclopedia (the printed one: the online one is circa 1910!), but apparently,
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 4, 2000
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                >According to the Church Dog=
                > ma the promise was fulfilled. However, the Church may recognize the relatio=
                > nship of modern Jews as descendants of the tribes of Israel and pious peopl=
                > e who try to keep traditions of their ancestors, but never as the same Old =
                > Church of Israel described in the books known as the Old Testament. In othe=
                > r words, if Rome had ever stated what you seem to be trying to get at, it w=
                > ould mean that the promise had never been fulfilled and thus Catholics woul=
                > d be better off simply converting to whichever branch of Judaism they choos=
                > e.

                Ask your local Roman Catholic theologian, or look it up in the Catholic
                encyclopedia (the printed one: the online one is circa 1910!), but
                apparently, Catholic theology now holds that the New Testament does not
                wipe out the Old and that Judaism is now a perfectly good religion _for
                Jews only_. Conversion to Judaism would be bad, since the Old Testament is
                talking about primarily Jews by birth. The New Covenant is for non-Jews,
                apparently; the Old Covenant, with the Jews, still holds. *Shrug* I'm not
                a theologian. But I did look it up, once upon a time, and I was a Roman
                Catholic.

                -- Jadwiga
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