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Re: [sig] Filthy Pechenegs :)

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  • Shadow
    ... If the Pechenegs are the same as the Ghuzz, or the Oghuz... ? Arthur Koestler s 13th Tribe quotes an Arab traveler named, I believe, Ibn Fadlan, who goes
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 27, 2000
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      "Dmitriy V. Ryaboy" wrote:

      > Okay, I have to ask.. what's your beef (or is it horseflesh?) with the
      > Pechenegs?

      If the Pechenegs are the same as the Ghuzz, or the Oghuz... ? Arthur Koestler's
      "13th Tribe" quotes an Arab traveler named, I believe, Ibn Fadlan, who goes to
      stay with the Ghuzz. The one thing that he really recalled about them was that
      they never changed their underwear.

      Which made me wonder...Hmmm....what was he doing looking at their underwear, and
      I'm surprised they even WORE underwear !!!

      LOL.

      Leya
    • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
      Okay, I have to ask.. what s your beef (or is it horseflesh?) with the Pechenegs? ... ________________________________________________________________________
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 27, 2000
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        Okay, I have to ask.. what's your beef (or is it horseflesh?) with the
        Pechenegs?


        >From: Barcsi Janos <janos@...>
        >the murderous, scum-sucking, babykilling, subhuman Pechenegs (and I mean no
        >offense by that)
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      • Shadow
        ... So the Magyars did the same thing the pechenegs did?? Let s face it, they all seemed to do it. I can t understand why every one of these horse tribes
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 27, 2000
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          varju@... wrote:

          > In a message dated 8/27/2000 5:08:12 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
          > dvryaboy@... writes:
          >
          > << Okay, I have to ask.. what's your beef (or is it horseflesh?) with the
          > Pechenegs? >>
          >
          > The same one that most Magyars would have. . .the Pechenegs are the ones who
          > forced them to migrate further west by attacking their semi-permanent
          > settlements, stealing wealth and killing or taking as many of the women and
          > children as they could. Persona-wise this is much closer to me than Janos,
          > as I would have represented one of the few women to survive these attacks.
          > This is also the reason that why once the Magyars were able to establish
          > themselves in the Carpathian Basin they began raiding for wealth and wives.
          >
          > Noemi

          So the Magyars did the same thing the pechenegs did??

          Let's face it, they all seemed to do it. I can't understand why every one of
          these horse tribes seemed to be like that. What was their problem? Too much
          testosterone??

          Leya
        • varju@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/27/2000 5:08:12 AM Mountain Daylight Time, dvryaboy@hotmail.com writes:
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 27, 2000
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            In a message dated 8/27/2000 5:08:12 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
            dvryaboy@... writes:

            << Okay, I have to ask.. what's your beef (or is it horseflesh?) with the
            Pechenegs? >>

            The same one that most Magyars would have. . .the Pechenegs are the ones who
            forced them to migrate further west by attacking their semi-permanent
            settlements, stealing wealth and killing or taking as many of the women and
            children as they could. Persona-wise this is much closer to me than Janos,
            as I would have represented one of the few women to survive these attacks.
            This is also the reason that why once the Magyars were able to establish
            themselves in the Carpathian Basin they began raiding for wealth and wives.


            Noemi
          • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
            ... Well, their problem is they are conquering new lands -- and that s what you do when you conquer, back then. It s not like Crusaders were any better. That
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 27, 2000
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              >From: Shadow <shadow42@...>
              >Let's face it, they all seemed to do it. I can't understand why every one
              >of
              >these horse tribes seemed to be like that. What was their problem? Too much
              >testosterone??
              >
              >Leya
              >

              Well, their problem is they are conquering new lands -- and that's what you
              do when you conquer, back then. It's not like Crusaders were any better.
              That and they needed slaves.

              -D
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            • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
              ... No, but they lived in the same region when Ibn Fadlan was there. So it is likely that whatever Ibn Fadlan said about the oghuz aplies to them, too. IIRC,
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 27, 2000
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                >From: Shadow <shadow42@...>
                >If the Pechenegs are the same as the Ghuzz, or the Oghuz... ? Leya
                >

                No, but they lived in the same region when Ibn Fadlan was there. So it is
                likely that whatever Ibn Fadlan said about the oghuz aplies to them, too.

                IIRC, Ghuz only went west after the Kipchaks -- and when the Ghuz came, it
                was as Mongol-Tartars, united with many others.

                -Dmitriy Shelomianin
                (yes, I could look it up. But I am lazy.)

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              • varju@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/27/2000 12:19:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time, shadow42@erols.com writes:
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 27, 2000
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                  In a message dated 8/27/2000 12:19:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                  shadow42@... writes:

                  << So the Magyars did the same thing the pechenegs did??

                  Let's face it, they all seemed to do it. I can't understand why every one of
                  these horse tribes seemed to be like that. What was their problem? Too much
                  testosterone?? >>

                  Now that I have found my notes I have to make a slight change to my original
                  discussion about the Pechenegs. Many sources on the Magyars state that the
                  Pechenegs attacked and killed most of the women and children. While this
                  another one of those statements it is hard to prove or disprove, this is very
                  different than the typical raiding and looting that was common among other
                  nomadic groups, including the Magyars themselves. So the answer to your
                  first questions is: based on what information we have the Pechenegs were
                  worse because they seemed to destroy everything rather than just take the
                  valuables.

                  The interesting thing here is that the existing information seems to indicate
                  that the Pechenegs are the ones who forced the Magyars to move from their
                  original homeland and eventually to the Khazar khaganate. Some scholars
                  believe that the Magyars became subjects of the Khazars to get protection
                  from the Pechenegs, which indicates an interesting dynamic between the two
                  groups.

                  As to why they did that. . .that's the way nomadic and semi-nomadic groups
                  work and to be honest how many "civilized" groups worked during that time
                  period. The difference is that the "civiized" groups often developed much
                  more subtle ways to steal all the riches and people from another area.

                  Noemi
                • Shadow
                  ... I guess my next question about those nomadic raider types is... someone told me that was how they acquired land. So what was wrong with the original land
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 28, 2000
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                    varju@... wrote:

                    > In a message dated 8/27/2000 12:19:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
                    > shadow42@... writes:
                    >
                    > << So the Magyars did the same thing the pechenegs did??
                    >
                    > Let's face it, they all seemed to do it. I can't understand why every one of
                    > these horse tribes seemed to be like that. What was their problem? Too much
                    > testosterone?? >>
                    >
                    >
                    > As to why they did that. . .that's the way nomadic and semi-nomadic groups
                    > work and to be honest how many "civilized" groups worked during that time
                    > period. The difference is that the "civiized" groups often developed much
                    > more subtle ways to steal all the riches and people from another area.
                    >
                    > Noemi

                    I guess my next question about those nomadic raider types is... someone told me
                    that was how they acquired land. So what was wrong with the original land they
                    lived in? Wasn't it suitable for agriculture or making a living? Was there
                    something that caused one group to flee, who collided with the next... & so on.

                    by way of analogy, I believe that the American Indians who were forced westward
                    by white expansion collided with the tribes in their path, whom they then had to
                    fight/displace, causing a ripple effect. And of course in the case of white
                    people it was largely the industrial revolution that displaced large numbers of
                    poor Europeans & caused them to flood America.

                    So there must be some sort of actual reason for the several centuries of chaos &
                    'barbarian' invasions. Just curious & want to know.

                    Leya
                  • Shadow
                    varju@aol.com wrote: Now that I have found my notes I have to make a slight change to my original ... I guess killing the women & children was just the way to
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 28, 2000
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                      varju@... wrote:

                      Now that I have found my notes I have to make a slight change to my original

                      > discussion about the Pechenegs. Many sources on the Magyars state that the
                      > Pechenegs attacked and killed most of the women and children. While this
                      > another one of those statements it is hard to prove or disprove, this is very
                      > different than the typical raiding and looting that was common among other
                      > nomadic groups, including the Magyars themselves.

                      >
                      > As to why they did that. . .that's the way nomadic and semi-nomadic groups
                      > work

                      I guess killing the women & children was just the way to get all the land for
                      oneself!

                      BTW that was what the American white settlers did when confronted with those
                      pesky Natives! But we won't go there.

                      Leya
                    • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
                      ... One interesting idea that has begun to accumulate some nice supporting evidence is that there was a major volcanic eruption around that time. There are
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 2, 2000
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                        On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, Shadow wrote:
                        > I guess my next question about those nomadic raider types is...
                        > someone told me that was how they acquired land. So what was wrong
                        > with the original land they lived in? Wasn't it suitable for
                        > agriculture or making a living? Was there something that caused one
                        > group to flee, who collided with the next... & so on.
                        >
                        > So there must be some sort of actual reason for the several centuries
                        > of chaos & 'barbarian' invasions. Just curious & want to know.

                        One interesting idea that has begun to accumulate some nice supporting
                        evidence is that there was a major volcanic eruption around that time.
                        There are layers of ash, bizarre tree-ring records in Europe, and Chinese
                        historical records that taken together suggest a volcano in Indonesia
                        (perhaps even Krakatau) exploded with such force and violence that the
                        dust sent into the atmosphere changed global climate for the next several
                        years. The suggestion is that the lands of Mongolia and central Asia
                        underwent a serious drought that overturned political order and sent a
                        series of ousted peoples west into Europe.

                        I can't give you more specifics than that, except that there was a program
                        on PBS a few months ago on the subject, and that the major proponent of
                        the idea has written a careful book on the subject.

                        --Walraven
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