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Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya

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  • MHoll@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time, ... we ... And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research --
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
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      In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
      p_serguei@... writes:

      > In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
      > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
      > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
      > "evening sunrise".
      >
      > They allegedly mated with sons of Orei and produced the Slavic nation as
      we
      > know it.

      And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research
      -- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
      and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact. There is
      no historical data about Russian paganism, or Slavic, beyond vague
      information about a variety of minor magical creatures. The consensus at this
      time is that Slavic paganism was a shamanistic/agrarian system with no
      structured Pantheon similar to Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or any other system.

      The indirect information about Slavic beliefs and rituals hints at some
      rituals that involved dancing and music, and more specific information coming
      from questions one parish priest asked of his superior, such as "should the
      bride be allowed to slice the cheese" -- a direct reference to something we
      encounter in much later sources about wedding rituals. However, "slicing the
      cheese" and other tidbits don't paint a picture of Russian paganism, just a
      few spots of color on a blank canvas.

      Predslava.
    • serguei plonski
      Hello, Predslava!
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
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        Hello, Predslava!


        <..And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical
        research
        >-- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
        >and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact..>

        I just want to make a couple of points here:

        first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
        that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
        "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
        sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
        or Bhagavat Gita?

        And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
        But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
        historians to point us out the errors and abnormaliies that would render it
        a fake?

        But this hasn't been done. Some of the critics don't even bother to read the
        source itself, being convinced that it's a fake from the start. I'm not
        saying it's authentic, but until the serious research is done on that book
        it should remain inconclusive.

        BB

        Sergei
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      • Vaclav von Pressburg
        On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote: . . . ... The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a religious book. ...
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 4, 2000
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          On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote:
          . . .
          > first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
          > that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
          > "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
          > sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
          > or Bhagavat Gita?

          The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a
          religious book.

          > And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
          > But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
          > historians to point us out the errors and abnormalities that would render it
          > a fake?

          The Book of Veles is one of a class of romantic fakes, like the
          Osian cycle of Scotland. I seem to recall a similar work from 19th
          century Czech literature. The case against this class of work rests
          on the following grounds

          1) Lack of _any_ indication of such information in the period
          between the supposed composition of the work and its
          publication. Thus for the Book of Veles there is a complete
          absence of evidence for the survival of Slavic paganism into
          medieval and modern times.
          2) Lack of an original manuscript. This is a very important
          consideration. If you found an old, hidden manuscript that
          had such important information would you lose track of it? Even
          if it were disintegrating, you would keep the pieces.
          3) Simply reading the handwriting of an old manuscript is
          difficult. The average person who is used to reading printed
          books would need the assistance of a palaeographic specialist to
          decipher most old manuscripts.
          4) The language is anachronistic. This doesn't just involve
          grammatical forms and word usage, but also style which can
          change significantly in the course of only a century. As an
          example, pick up a book published in 1910 or 1920 and compare
          the style to that in a current English book.

          --
          Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
          vaclav@...
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