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Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya

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  • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
    ... Which means you need to triple check it... -D ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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      >From: "serguei plonski" <p_serguei@...>

      >Hello,
      >In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)


      Which means you need to triple check it...

      -D
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    • serguei plonski
      Hello, Liudmila! You are absolutely right. I apologize for the misleading information. It s just the usual ignorance of a native speaker who spent too much
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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        Hello, Liudmila!

        You are absolutely right. I apologize for the misleading information. It's
        just the usual ignorance of a native speaker who spent too much time away
        from home.

        I'm trying to remember if the people in my community ever used "zaria" to
        indicate the look on the sky at sunsets... Maybe they did and I just don't
        remember.

        Thanks for corrections!

        Sergei


        >From: LiudmilaV@...
        >Reply-To: sig@egroups.com
        >To: sig@egroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya
        >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:40:19 EDT
        >
        >In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
        >p_serguei@... writes:
        >
        ><< Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress
        >on
        > a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
        > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia
        >and
        > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
        > "evening sunrise".
        > >>
        >
        >"Zorya" is not a sunrise but a look of the sky and the time of day when the
        >sun goes up or down. The stress, at least in modern Russian, is at the
        >last
        >syllable. Sorry. (Soraya -- I will pronounce it for you if you remind me,
        >it is indeed close to your name).
        >
        >Liudmila
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

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      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time, ... we ... And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research --
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
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          In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
          p_serguei@... writes:

          > In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
          > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
          > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
          > "evening sunrise".
          >
          > They allegedly mated with sons of Orei and produced the Slavic nation as
          we
          > know it.

          And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research
          -- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
          and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact. There is
          no historical data about Russian paganism, or Slavic, beyond vague
          information about a variety of minor magical creatures. The consensus at this
          time is that Slavic paganism was a shamanistic/agrarian system with no
          structured Pantheon similar to Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or any other system.

          The indirect information about Slavic beliefs and rituals hints at some
          rituals that involved dancing and music, and more specific information coming
          from questions one parish priest asked of his superior, such as "should the
          bride be allowed to slice the cheese" -- a direct reference to something we
          encounter in much later sources about wedding rituals. However, "slicing the
          cheese" and other tidbits don't paint a picture of Russian paganism, just a
          few spots of color on a blank canvas.

          Predslava.
        • serguei plonski
          Hello, Predslava!
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
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            Hello, Predslava!


            <..And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical
            research
            >-- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
            >and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact..>

            I just want to make a couple of points here:

            first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
            that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
            "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
            sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
            or Bhagavat Gita?

            And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
            But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
            historians to point us out the errors and abnormaliies that would render it
            a fake?

            But this hasn't been done. Some of the critics don't even bother to read the
            source itself, being convinced that it's a fake from the start. I'm not
            saying it's authentic, but until the serious research is done on that book
            it should remain inconclusive.

            BB

            Sergei
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          • Vaclav von Pressburg
            On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote: . . . ... The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a religious book. ...
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 4, 2000
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              On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote:
              . . .
              > first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
              > that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
              > "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
              > sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
              > or Bhagavat Gita?

              The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a
              religious book.

              > And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
              > But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
              > historians to point us out the errors and abnormalities that would render it
              > a fake?

              The Book of Veles is one of a class of romantic fakes, like the
              Osian cycle of Scotland. I seem to recall a similar work from 19th
              century Czech literature. The case against this class of work rests
              on the following grounds

              1) Lack of _any_ indication of such information in the period
              between the supposed composition of the work and its
              publication. Thus for the Book of Veles there is a complete
              absence of evidence for the survival of Slavic paganism into
              medieval and modern times.
              2) Lack of an original manuscript. This is a very important
              consideration. If you found an old, hidden manuscript that
              had such important information would you lose track of it? Even
              if it were disintegrating, you would keep the pieces.
              3) Simply reading the handwriting of an old manuscript is
              difficult. The average person who is used to reading printed
              books would need the assistance of a palaeographic specialist to
              decipher most old manuscripts.
              4) The language is anachronistic. This doesn't just involve
              grammatical forms and word usage, but also style which can
              change significantly in the course of only a century. As an
              example, pick up a book published in 1910 or 1920 and compare
              the style to that in a current English book.

              --
              Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
              vaclav@...
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