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Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya

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  • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
    ... Which means you need to triple check it... -D ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
      >From: "serguei plonski" <p_serguei@...>

      >Hello,
      >In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)


      Which means you need to triple check it...

      -D
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    • LiudmilaV@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, p_serguei@hotmail.com writes:
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
        In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
        p_serguei@... writes:

        << Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress
        on
        a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
        there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
        Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
        "evening sunrise".
        >>

        "Zorya" is not a sunrise but a look of the sky and the time of day when the
        sun goes up or down. The stress, at least in modern Russian, is at the last
        syllable. Sorry. (Soraya -- I will pronounce it for you if you remind me,
        it is indeed close to your name).

        Liudmila
      • serguei plonski
        Hello, Liudmila! You are absolutely right. I apologize for the misleading information. It s just the usual ignorance of a native speaker who spent too much
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
          Hello, Liudmila!

          You are absolutely right. I apologize for the misleading information. It's
          just the usual ignorance of a native speaker who spent too much time away
          from home.

          I'm trying to remember if the people in my community ever used "zaria" to
          indicate the look on the sky at sunsets... Maybe they did and I just don't
          remember.

          Thanks for corrections!

          Sergei


          >From: LiudmilaV@...
          >Reply-To: sig@egroups.com
          >To: sig@egroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya
          >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:40:19 EDT
          >
          >In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          >p_serguei@... writes:
          >
          ><< Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress
          >on
          > a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
          > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia
          >and
          > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
          > "evening sunrise".
          > >>
          >
          >"Zorya" is not a sunrise but a look of the sky and the time of day when the
          >sun goes up or down. The stress, at least in modern Russian, is at the
          >last
          >syllable. Sorry. (Soraya -- I will pronounce it for you if you remind me,
          >it is indeed close to your name).
          >
          >Liudmila
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

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        • MHoll@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time, ... we ... And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research --
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
            In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
            p_serguei@... writes:

            > In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
            > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
            > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
            > "evening sunrise".
            >
            > They allegedly mated with sons of Orei and produced the Slavic nation as
            we
            > know it.

            And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research
            -- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
            and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact. There is
            no historical data about Russian paganism, or Slavic, beyond vague
            information about a variety of minor magical creatures. The consensus at this
            time is that Slavic paganism was a shamanistic/agrarian system with no
            structured Pantheon similar to Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or any other system.

            The indirect information about Slavic beliefs and rituals hints at some
            rituals that involved dancing and music, and more specific information coming
            from questions one parish priest asked of his superior, such as "should the
            bride be allowed to slice the cheese" -- a direct reference to something we
            encounter in much later sources about wedding rituals. However, "slicing the
            cheese" and other tidbits don't paint a picture of Russian paganism, just a
            few spots of color on a blank canvas.

            Predslava.
          • serguei plonski
            Hello, Predslava!
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
              Hello, Predslava!


              <..And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical
              research
              >-- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
              >and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact..>

              I just want to make a couple of points here:

              first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
              that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
              "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
              sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
              or Bhagavat Gita?

              And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
              But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
              historians to point us out the errors and abnormaliies that would render it
              a fake?

              But this hasn't been done. Some of the critics don't even bother to read the
              source itself, being convinced that it's a fake from the start. I'm not
              saying it's authentic, but until the serious research is done on that book
              it should remain inconclusive.

              BB

              Sergei
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            • Vaclav von Pressburg
              On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote: . . . ... The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a religious book. ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 4, 2000
                On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote:
                . . .
                > first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
                > that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
                > "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
                > sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
                > or Bhagavat Gita?

                The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a
                religious book.

                > And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
                > But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
                > historians to point us out the errors and abnormalities that would render it
                > a fake?

                The Book of Veles is one of a class of romantic fakes, like the
                Osian cycle of Scotland. I seem to recall a similar work from 19th
                century Czech literature. The case against this class of work rests
                on the following grounds

                1) Lack of _any_ indication of such information in the period
                between the supposed composition of the work and its
                publication. Thus for the Book of Veles there is a complete
                absence of evidence for the survival of Slavic paganism into
                medieval and modern times.
                2) Lack of an original manuscript. This is a very important
                consideration. If you found an old, hidden manuscript that
                had such important information would you lose track of it? Even
                if it were disintegrating, you would keep the pieces.
                3) Simply reading the handwriting of an old manuscript is
                difficult. The average person who is used to reading printed
                books would need the assistance of a palaeographic specialist to
                decipher most old manuscripts.
                4) The language is anachronistic. This doesn't just involve
                grammatical forms and word usage, but also style which can
                change significantly in the course of only a century. As an
                example, pick up a book published in 1910 or 1920 and compare
                the style to that in a current English book.

                --
                Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                vaclav@...
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