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Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya

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  • serguei plonski
    Hello, Zorya means sunrise in Russian. It is pronounced zaria with a stress on a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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      Hello,

      Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress on
      a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
      there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
      Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
      "evening sunrise".

      They allegedly mated with sons of Orei and produced the Slavic nation as we
      know it.

      BB

      Sergei


      >From: Sarayya@...
      >Reply-To: sig@egroups.com
      >To: sig@egroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya
      >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 03:12:54 EDT
      >
      >What is the "Zorya"? What does the word mean?
      >
      >How do you pronounce it?
      >
      >I find it interesting because it is somewhat close to my name.
      >
      >Soraya Evodia of Odessa
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

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    • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
      ... Which means you need to triple check it... -D ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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        >From: "serguei plonski" <p_serguei@...>

        >Hello,
        >In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)


        Which means you need to triple check it...

        -D
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      • LiudmilaV@aol.com
        In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, p_serguei@hotmail.com writes:
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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          In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          p_serguei@... writes:

          << Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress
          on
          a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
          there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
          Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
          "evening sunrise".
          >>

          "Zorya" is not a sunrise but a look of the sky and the time of day when the
          sun goes up or down. The stress, at least in modern Russian, is at the last
          syllable. Sorry. (Soraya -- I will pronounce it for you if you remind me,
          it is indeed close to your name).

          Liudmila
        • serguei plonski
          Hello, Liudmila! You are absolutely right. I apologize for the misleading information. It s just the usual ignorance of a native speaker who spent too much
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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            Hello, Liudmila!

            You are absolutely right. I apologize for the misleading information. It's
            just the usual ignorance of a native speaker who spent too much time away
            from home.

            I'm trying to remember if the people in my community ever used "zaria" to
            indicate the look on the sky at sunsets... Maybe they did and I just don't
            remember.

            Thanks for corrections!

            Sergei


            >From: LiudmilaV@...
            >Reply-To: sig@egroups.com
            >To: sig@egroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya
            >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:40:19 EDT
            >
            >In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
            >p_serguei@... writes:
            >
            ><< Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress
            >on
            > a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
            > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia
            >and
            > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
            > "evening sunrise".
            > >>
            >
            >"Zorya" is not a sunrise but a look of the sky and the time of day when the
            >sun goes up or down. The stress, at least in modern Russian, is at the
            >last
            >syllable. Sorry. (Soraya -- I will pronounce it for you if you remind me,
            >it is indeed close to your name).
            >
            >Liudmila
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

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          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time, ... we ... And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research --
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
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              In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
              p_serguei@... writes:

              > In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
              > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
              > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
              > "evening sunrise".
              >
              > They allegedly mated with sons of Orei and produced the Slavic nation as
              we
              > know it.

              And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research
              -- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
              and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact. There is
              no historical data about Russian paganism, or Slavic, beyond vague
              information about a variety of minor magical creatures. The consensus at this
              time is that Slavic paganism was a shamanistic/agrarian system with no
              structured Pantheon similar to Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or any other system.

              The indirect information about Slavic beliefs and rituals hints at some
              rituals that involved dancing and music, and more specific information coming
              from questions one parish priest asked of his superior, such as "should the
              bride be allowed to slice the cheese" -- a direct reference to something we
              encounter in much later sources about wedding rituals. However, "slicing the
              cheese" and other tidbits don't paint a picture of Russian paganism, just a
              few spots of color on a blank canvas.

              Predslava.
            • serguei plonski
              Hello, Predslava!
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
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                Hello, Predslava!


                <..And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical
                research
                >-- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
                >and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact..>

                I just want to make a couple of points here:

                first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
                that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
                "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
                sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
                or Bhagavat Gita?

                And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
                But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
                historians to point us out the errors and abnormaliies that would render it
                a fake?

                But this hasn't been done. Some of the critics don't even bother to read the
                source itself, being convinced that it's a fake from the start. I'm not
                saying it's authentic, but until the serious research is done on that book
                it should remain inconclusive.

                BB

                Sergei
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              • Vaclav von Pressburg
                On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote: . . . ... The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a religious book. ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 4, 2000
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                  On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote:
                  . . .
                  > first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
                  > that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
                  > "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
                  > sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
                  > or Bhagavat Gita?

                  The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a
                  religious book.

                  > And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
                  > But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
                  > historians to point us out the errors and abnormalities that would render it
                  > a fake?

                  The Book of Veles is one of a class of romantic fakes, like the
                  Osian cycle of Scotland. I seem to recall a similar work from 19th
                  century Czech literature. The case against this class of work rests
                  on the following grounds

                  1) Lack of _any_ indication of such information in the period
                  between the supposed composition of the work and its
                  publication. Thus for the Book of Veles there is a complete
                  absence of evidence for the survival of Slavic paganism into
                  medieval and modern times.
                  2) Lack of an original manuscript. This is a very important
                  consideration. If you found an old, hidden manuscript that
                  had such important information would you lose track of it? Even
                  if it were disintegrating, you would keep the pieces.
                  3) Simply reading the handwriting of an old manuscript is
                  difficult. The average person who is used to reading printed
                  books would need the assistance of a palaeographic specialist to
                  decipher most old manuscripts.
                  4) The language is anachronistic. This doesn't just involve
                  grammatical forms and word usage, but also style which can
                  change significantly in the course of only a century. As an
                  example, pick up a book published in 1910 or 1920 and compare
                  the style to that in a current English book.

                  --
                  Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                  vaclav@...
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