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Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning

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  • Amanda Lewanski
    ... Well, it s late and the baby sleeps in the room with the computer, but here s the short answer, from www.encyclopedia.com: Ruthenia Latinized form of
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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      LiudmilaV@... wrote:

      > Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
      > to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
      > Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
      > appreciate the information.

      Well, it's late and the baby sleeps in the room with the computer, but here's
      the short answer, from www.encyclopedia.com:

      Ruthenia
      Latinized form of Russia. The term was applied to
      Ukraine when the medieval princes of Galich took the
      title kings of Ruthenia. Later, in Austria-Hungary,
      Ruthenians denoted the Ukranian population of W
      Ukraine. After 1918 Ruthenia referred only to the
      easternmost province of Czechoslovakia, also known as
      the Carpathian, or Transcarpathian, Ukraine; it became
      part of the Soviet Ukraine in 1945.

      I've given you some URLs below, but you can also search on "Ruthenia," either
      alone or appending Red or White (didn't find much on Black on the net). "Rusyn"
      gets some interesting results, too---it's an ethnic subgroup, not a misspelling.

      The OED said the term "Ruthenia" is from medieval Latin for Russia. However, a
      history of Eastern Europe will do you more good than a history of Russia, since
      these peoples were not claimed as one of the "Russias" until Ivan. Again,
      "Russian" in the modern sense of the word is just that. The Rus are not the same
      thing, nor are the Ruthenians.

      The book we yanked to flip through was Norman Davies' "God's Playground: A
      History of Poland", vol. 1. We picked this one because it's a well-known
      scholarly work, easily accessible, and discusses a lot of Eastern European
      history in the discussion of the early periods. And he has useful references.
      Anyway, besides many references in passing (since Ruthenia is not the focus of
      this work), several maps show the sections of Ruthenia, including on on p. 73
      showing Mazovia bordering Black Ruthenia and Malopolska bordering Red. ["Poland"
      as such wasn't an entity yet, then, either, so much as a confederation of its
      smaller components.] Map 7, p. 97, shows Poland under Casimir the Great
      (1330-70), where Ruthenia (claimed by Casimir) is sandwiched between Lithuania
      and Hungary. I can scan these and email them if you want.

      In fact, lots of the sites that discussed Ruthenia were Hungarian interest
      sites. (or Slovakian).

      Here's a few of the more interesting URLs I found in a quick search. Use the
      "find in page" to get to mention of Ruthenia. Search on "Ruthenia" or "Ruthene."

      http://www.fotw.net/flags/ua-gal.html
      http://members.aol.com/genfir1/ruthia.htm
      http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/crs/rnames.htm
      http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/coll/ukra.html

      Linguistically, Ruthenian was also a dialect. Davies mentions on p. 115 that
      "Its [Lithuania's] official language was "ruski" or Ruthenian -- in a form which
      is now known as 'Old Byelorussian.'

      Let me know if you need any more. This was just a quick search. It was and is
      not an uncommon term, but you'd have been more likely to know it if you were
      living there in the 1200s than the 1900s.

      --Alisandre
    • Jenne Heise
      ... Try the Annals of Jan Dlugoz, which is an english translation of a fifteenth century Polish history. It took me forever to work out who and where the
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 2, 2000
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        > Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
        > to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
        > Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
        > appreciate the information.

        Try the Annals of Jan Dlugoz, which is an english translation of a
        fifteenth century Polish history. It took me forever to work out who and
        where the Ruthenians were, because they show up all over the place but
        nobody seems to explain them. However, when you speak to older people they
        talk about White, Black and Red Russians (NOT the drinks, but
        nationalities or ethnicities apparently?) and those seem to corespond to
        the Ruthenians. Perhaps 'Ruthenians' is the latin or english term and
        there is another term in Ukranian, that the older people were translating
        as 'Russian'?

        Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
        disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.

        "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the
        nuts work loose.
        They do not preach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when
        they damn-well choose. " -Kipling, "The Sons of Martha"
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