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Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning

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  • petzserg
    ... From: Amanda Lewanski To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning ...
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 1 4:30 PM
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor@...>
      To: <sig@egroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 6:56 PM
      Subject: Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning


      > Shadow wrote:
      >
      > > I may be coming in to the middle of this, but I always did wonder what
      "Red"
      > > signified for Russians (doesn't the name "Rus" mean Red?)
      > > And did "Red" always have meaning for them before the communist period?
      I don't know how true, but I've heard the words "red" and "beautiful" were
      close. Also used to describe the corner where the icons were kept. The
      argument was made that the communist's co-opted the color to forward their
      revolutionary cause among the peasantry- Any one else? Sergius
    • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
      ... It s true, -- krasa , krasota means beauty and krasnyi means red. Often in fairy tales you see a young man or woman described as red -- meaning
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 1 4:41 PM
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        >From: "petzserg" <petzserg@...>
        >I don't know how true, but I've heard the words "red" and "beautiful" were
        >close.

        It's true, -- "krasa", "krasota" means "beauty" and "krasnyi" means "red."
        Often in fairy tales you see a young man or woman described as "red" --
        meaning pretty, healthy, beautiful, etc etc.

        >Also used to describe the corner where the icons were kept.

        And a protrait of Lenin in my times -- I am not kidding. We had a red
        corner at school.

        The
        >argument was made that the communist's co-opted the color to forward their
        >revolutionary cause among the peasantry- Any one else? Sergius
        >

        That may have been a part of it, I don't know -- but I think the "official"
        meaning was that it's the color of working men's blood spilled by the
        "bourgeoise capitalist slaveworkers" :). At least thats what they told us 60
        some years later.
        Didn't the French also use the red flag during their revolution, for pretty
        much the same reason?

        And red if French is "rouge" (pronounced "roozh"), not Rus. Unles you have
        an accent ;).

        Dmitriy Shelomianin

        ________________________________________________________________________
        Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 8/1/2000 8:11:42 AM Central Daylight Time, lisa-kies@uiowa.edu writes: OK, I guess I have to pick some nits... Can t help myself... Only
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 1 5:06 PM
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          In a message dated 8/1/2000 8:11:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
          lisa-kies@... writes:

          OK, I guess I have to pick some nits... Can't help myself... Only time I'm
          allowed to...

          > At one time, the words [<krasnyi> and <krasivyi>] were
          > the same, which gives a nice double meaning to the name "Red Square". So
          > red had great meaning for the Rus long before the communists came along.

          It's not that simple. At one time, <krasnyi> meant beautiful. Other words
          were used for "red" (<chervlenyi> <chermnyi> -- do not confuse with
          <chernyi>, black -- <alyi> etc). Eventually, <krasnyi> came to mean "red".
          Indeed, the color red is the color of festival, rejoicing, and just basically
          the favorite color for everything. Somewhere, I have a statistical note about
          the number of fragments of red cloth from medieval finds vs. all the other
          colors -- rather overwhelming.

          > In China, red was/is the color of good fortune and happiness. So in China,
          > red had meaning before the communists, too.

          > Rus means red in French and has nothing to do with how the Russians got
          > their name. There are plenty of other theories about that.

          Hmm... maybe in medieval French. In modern French, <roux> (m) or <rousse> (f)
          means "red-head." <Rouge> means "red". <Roux> also means "rust-colored"
          ("rouille" is rust).

          Predslava.
        • LiudmilaV@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/1/2000 4:12:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, editor@texas.net writes:
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 1 6:05 PM
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            In a message dated 8/1/2000 4:12:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
            editor@... writes:

            << Okay, I dragged my historian husband up here to ask this, since I've know
            I've
            heard him discuss this. FYI: the term "Russian" doesn't really come to mean
            what
            we think of as Russian until Ivan the Terrible.

            Medievally---there were Red, Black, and White Ruthenians. Red Ruthenians
            lived
            in the steppes in what is now Ukraine. White Ruthenians lived in what is
            Belorus
            (belo means "white"). He's not sure where the Black Ruthenians lived, but
            thinks
            maybe the Priypet Marshes. The distinction had to do with the color of the
            soil.
            >>

            Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
            to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
            Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
            appreciate the information.

            Liudmila
          • Amanda Lewanski
            ... Well, it s late and the baby sleeps in the room with the computer, but here s the short answer, from www.encyclopedia.com: Ruthenia Latinized form of
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 1 8:16 PM
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              LiudmilaV@... wrote:

              > Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
              > to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
              > Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
              > appreciate the information.

              Well, it's late and the baby sleeps in the room with the computer, but here's
              the short answer, from www.encyclopedia.com:

              Ruthenia
              Latinized form of Russia. The term was applied to
              Ukraine when the medieval princes of Galich took the
              title kings of Ruthenia. Later, in Austria-Hungary,
              Ruthenians denoted the Ukranian population of W
              Ukraine. After 1918 Ruthenia referred only to the
              easternmost province of Czechoslovakia, also known as
              the Carpathian, or Transcarpathian, Ukraine; it became
              part of the Soviet Ukraine in 1945.

              I've given you some URLs below, but you can also search on "Ruthenia," either
              alone or appending Red or White (didn't find much on Black on the net). "Rusyn"
              gets some interesting results, too---it's an ethnic subgroup, not a misspelling.

              The OED said the term "Ruthenia" is from medieval Latin for Russia. However, a
              history of Eastern Europe will do you more good than a history of Russia, since
              these peoples were not claimed as one of the "Russias" until Ivan. Again,
              "Russian" in the modern sense of the word is just that. The Rus are not the same
              thing, nor are the Ruthenians.

              The book we yanked to flip through was Norman Davies' "God's Playground: A
              History of Poland", vol. 1. We picked this one because it's a well-known
              scholarly work, easily accessible, and discusses a lot of Eastern European
              history in the discussion of the early periods. And he has useful references.
              Anyway, besides many references in passing (since Ruthenia is not the focus of
              this work), several maps show the sections of Ruthenia, including on on p. 73
              showing Mazovia bordering Black Ruthenia and Malopolska bordering Red. ["Poland"
              as such wasn't an entity yet, then, either, so much as a confederation of its
              smaller components.] Map 7, p. 97, shows Poland under Casimir the Great
              (1330-70), where Ruthenia (claimed by Casimir) is sandwiched between Lithuania
              and Hungary. I can scan these and email them if you want.

              In fact, lots of the sites that discussed Ruthenia were Hungarian interest
              sites. (or Slovakian).

              Here's a few of the more interesting URLs I found in a quick search. Use the
              "find in page" to get to mention of Ruthenia. Search on "Ruthenia" or "Ruthene."

              http://www.fotw.net/flags/ua-gal.html
              http://members.aol.com/genfir1/ruthia.htm
              http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/crs/rnames.htm
              http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/coll/ukra.html

              Linguistically, Ruthenian was also a dialect. Davies mentions on p. 115 that
              "Its [Lithuania's] official language was "ruski" or Ruthenian -- in a form which
              is now known as 'Old Byelorussian.'

              Let me know if you need any more. This was just a quick search. It was and is
              not an uncommon term, but you'd have been more likely to know it if you were
              living there in the 1200s than the 1900s.

              --Alisandre
            • Jenne Heise
              ... Try the Annals of Jan Dlugoz, which is an english translation of a fifteenth century Polish history. It took me forever to work out who and where the
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 2 8:12 AM
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                > Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
                > to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
                > Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
                > appreciate the information.

                Try the Annals of Jan Dlugoz, which is an english translation of a
                fifteenth century Polish history. It took me forever to work out who and
                where the Ruthenians were, because they show up all over the place but
                nobody seems to explain them. However, when you speak to older people they
                talk about White, Black and Red Russians (NOT the drinks, but
                nationalities or ethnicities apparently?) and those seem to corespond to
                the Ruthenians. Perhaps 'Ruthenians' is the latin or english term and
                there is another term in Ukranian, that the older people were translating
                as 'Russian'?

                Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.

                "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the
                nuts work loose.
                They do not preach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when
                they damn-well choose. " -Kipling, "The Sons of Martha"
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