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Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning

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  • Amanda Lewanski
    ... Okay, I dragged my historian husband up here to ask this, since I ve know I ve heard him discuss this. FYI: the term Russian doesn t really come to mean
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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      Shadow wrote:

      > I may be coming in to the middle of this, but I always did wonder what "Red"
      > signified for Russians (doesn't the name "Rus" mean Red?)
      > And did "Red" always have meaning for them before the communist period?

      Okay, I dragged my historian husband up here to ask this, since I've know I've
      heard him discuss this. FYI: the term "Russian" doesn't really come to mean what
      we think of as Russian until Ivan the Terrible.

      Medievally---there were Red, Black, and White Ruthenians. Red Ruthenians lived
      in the steppes in what is now Ukraine. White Ruthenians lived in what is Belorus
      (belo means "white"). He's not sure where the Black Ruthenians lived, but thinks
      maybe the Priypet Marshes. The distinction had to do with the color of the soil.

      In this century---A red banner is a traditional color of a banner of revolution;
      the communists were revolutionaries, so they adopted a traditional symbol. (ex:
      the revolutionaries of France used a red banner, too.) The white russians were
      the royalists, who wanted to re-establish the tsar; they called themselves thus
      to distinguish themselves from the communists, who had begun calling themselves
      "reds."

      This has been a thumbnail sketch. Hope it helps.

      --Alisandre
    • petzserg
      ... From: Amanda Lewanski To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning ...
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor@...>
        To: <sig@egroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 6:56 PM
        Subject: Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning


        > Shadow wrote:
        >
        > > I may be coming in to the middle of this, but I always did wonder what
        "Red"
        > > signified for Russians (doesn't the name "Rus" mean Red?)
        > > And did "Red" always have meaning for them before the communist period?
        I don't know how true, but I've heard the words "red" and "beautiful" were
        close. Also used to describe the corner where the icons were kept. The
        argument was made that the communist's co-opted the color to forward their
        revolutionary cause among the peasantry- Any one else? Sergius
      • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
        ... It s true, -- krasa , krasota means beauty and krasnyi means red. Often in fairy tales you see a young man or woman described as red -- meaning
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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          >From: "petzserg" <petzserg@...>
          >I don't know how true, but I've heard the words "red" and "beautiful" were
          >close.

          It's true, -- "krasa", "krasota" means "beauty" and "krasnyi" means "red."
          Often in fairy tales you see a young man or woman described as "red" --
          meaning pretty, healthy, beautiful, etc etc.

          >Also used to describe the corner where the icons were kept.

          And a protrait of Lenin in my times -- I am not kidding. We had a red
          corner at school.

          The
          >argument was made that the communist's co-opted the color to forward their
          >revolutionary cause among the peasantry- Any one else? Sergius
          >

          That may have been a part of it, I don't know -- but I think the "official"
          meaning was that it's the color of working men's blood spilled by the
          "bourgeoise capitalist slaveworkers" :). At least thats what they told us 60
          some years later.
          Didn't the French also use the red flag during their revolution, for pretty
          much the same reason?

          And red if French is "rouge" (pronounced "roozh"), not Rus. Unles you have
          an accent ;).

          Dmitriy Shelomianin

          ________________________________________________________________________
          Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
        • MHoll@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/1/2000 8:11:42 AM Central Daylight Time, lisa-kies@uiowa.edu writes: OK, I guess I have to pick some nits... Can t help myself... Only
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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            In a message dated 8/1/2000 8:11:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
            lisa-kies@... writes:

            OK, I guess I have to pick some nits... Can't help myself... Only time I'm
            allowed to...

            > At one time, the words [<krasnyi> and <krasivyi>] were
            > the same, which gives a nice double meaning to the name "Red Square". So
            > red had great meaning for the Rus long before the communists came along.

            It's not that simple. At one time, <krasnyi> meant beautiful. Other words
            were used for "red" (<chervlenyi> <chermnyi> -- do not confuse with
            <chernyi>, black -- <alyi> etc). Eventually, <krasnyi> came to mean "red".
            Indeed, the color red is the color of festival, rejoicing, and just basically
            the favorite color for everything. Somewhere, I have a statistical note about
            the number of fragments of red cloth from medieval finds vs. all the other
            colors -- rather overwhelming.

            > In China, red was/is the color of good fortune and happiness. So in China,
            > red had meaning before the communists, too.

            > Rus means red in French and has nothing to do with how the Russians got
            > their name. There are plenty of other theories about that.

            Hmm... maybe in medieval French. In modern French, <roux> (m) or <rousse> (f)
            means "red-head." <Rouge> means "red". <Roux> also means "rust-colored"
            ("rouille" is rust).

            Predslava.
          • LiudmilaV@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/1/2000 4:12:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, editor@texas.net writes:
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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              In a message dated 8/1/2000 4:12:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
              editor@... writes:

              << Okay, I dragged my historian husband up here to ask this, since I've know
              I've
              heard him discuss this. FYI: the term "Russian" doesn't really come to mean
              what
              we think of as Russian until Ivan the Terrible.

              Medievally---there were Red, Black, and White Ruthenians. Red Ruthenians
              lived
              in the steppes in what is now Ukraine. White Ruthenians lived in what is
              Belorus
              (belo means "white"). He's not sure where the Black Ruthenians lived, but
              thinks
              maybe the Priypet Marshes. The distinction had to do with the color of the
              soil.
              >>

              Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
              to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
              Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
              appreciate the information.

              Liudmila
            • Amanda Lewanski
              ... Well, it s late and the baby sleeps in the room with the computer, but here s the short answer, from www.encyclopedia.com: Ruthenia Latinized form of
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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                LiudmilaV@... wrote:

                > Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
                > to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
                > Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
                > appreciate the information.

                Well, it's late and the baby sleeps in the room with the computer, but here's
                the short answer, from www.encyclopedia.com:

                Ruthenia
                Latinized form of Russia. The term was applied to
                Ukraine when the medieval princes of Galich took the
                title kings of Ruthenia. Later, in Austria-Hungary,
                Ruthenians denoted the Ukranian population of W
                Ukraine. After 1918 Ruthenia referred only to the
                easternmost province of Czechoslovakia, also known as
                the Carpathian, or Transcarpathian, Ukraine; it became
                part of the Soviet Ukraine in 1945.

                I've given you some URLs below, but you can also search on "Ruthenia," either
                alone or appending Red or White (didn't find much on Black on the net). "Rusyn"
                gets some interesting results, too---it's an ethnic subgroup, not a misspelling.

                The OED said the term "Ruthenia" is from medieval Latin for Russia. However, a
                history of Eastern Europe will do you more good than a history of Russia, since
                these peoples were not claimed as one of the "Russias" until Ivan. Again,
                "Russian" in the modern sense of the word is just that. The Rus are not the same
                thing, nor are the Ruthenians.

                The book we yanked to flip through was Norman Davies' "God's Playground: A
                History of Poland", vol. 1. We picked this one because it's a well-known
                scholarly work, easily accessible, and discusses a lot of Eastern European
                history in the discussion of the early periods. And he has useful references.
                Anyway, besides many references in passing (since Ruthenia is not the focus of
                this work), several maps show the sections of Ruthenia, including on on p. 73
                showing Mazovia bordering Black Ruthenia and Malopolska bordering Red. ["Poland"
                as such wasn't an entity yet, then, either, so much as a confederation of its
                smaller components.] Map 7, p. 97, shows Poland under Casimir the Great
                (1330-70), where Ruthenia (claimed by Casimir) is sandwiched between Lithuania
                and Hungary. I can scan these and email them if you want.

                In fact, lots of the sites that discussed Ruthenia were Hungarian interest
                sites. (or Slovakian).

                Here's a few of the more interesting URLs I found in a quick search. Use the
                "find in page" to get to mention of Ruthenia. Search on "Ruthenia" or "Ruthene."

                http://www.fotw.net/flags/ua-gal.html
                http://members.aol.com/genfir1/ruthia.htm
                http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/crs/rnames.htm
                http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/coll/ukra.html

                Linguistically, Ruthenian was also a dialect. Davies mentions on p. 115 that
                "Its [Lithuania's] official language was "ruski" or Ruthenian -- in a form which
                is now known as 'Old Byelorussian.'

                Let me know if you need any more. This was just a quick search. It was and is
                not an uncommon term, but you'd have been more likely to know it if you were
                living there in the 1200s than the 1900s.

                --Alisandre
              • Jenne Heise
                ... Try the Annals of Jan Dlugoz, which is an english translation of a fifteenth century Polish history. It took me forever to work out who and where the
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 2, 2000
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                  > Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
                  > to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
                  > Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
                  > appreciate the information.

                  Try the Annals of Jan Dlugoz, which is an english translation of a
                  fifteenth century Polish history. It took me forever to work out who and
                  where the Ruthenians were, because they show up all over the place but
                  nobody seems to explain them. However, when you speak to older people they
                  talk about White, Black and Red Russians (NOT the drinks, but
                  nationalities or ethnicities apparently?) and those seem to corespond to
                  the Ruthenians. Perhaps 'Ruthenians' is the latin or english term and
                  there is another term in Ukranian, that the older people were translating
                  as 'Russian'?

                  Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                  disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.

                  "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the
                  nuts work loose.
                  They do not preach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when
                  they damn-well choose. " -Kipling, "The Sons of Martha"
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