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Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning

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  • Shadow
    ... I may be coming in to the middle of this, but I always did wonder what Red signified for Russians (doesn t the name Rus mean Red?) And did Red always
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 31, 2000
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      Sarayya@... wrote:

      > Red was always the right color for Russians.
      >
      > Soraya

      I may be coming in to the middle of this, but I always did wonder what "Red"
      signified for Russians (doesn't the name "Rus" mean Red?)
      And did "Red" always have meaning for them before the communist period?

      Laura/Leya
    • Kies, Lisa
      The modern Russian word for red, krasnaya , contains the same root at the modern Russian word for beautiful, krasivaya . At one time, the words were the
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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        The modern Russian word for red, "krasnaya", contains the same root at the
        modern Russian word for beautiful, "krasivaya". At one time, the words were
        the same, which gives a nice double meaning to the name "Red Square". So
        red had great meaning for the Rus long before the communists came along.

        In China, red was/is the color of good fortune and happiness. So in China,
        red had meaning before the communists, too.

        Rus means red in French and has nothing to do with how the Russians got
        their name. There are plenty of other theories about that.

        In service,
        Sofya la Rus

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Shadow

        I may be coming in to the middle of this, but I always did wonder what
        "Red" signified for Russians (doesn't the name "Rus" mean Red?)
        And did "Red" always have meaning for them before the communist period?

        Laura/Leya
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
      • Britta Parsons
        Rus means red in French and has nothing to do with how the Russians got their name. I thought the word for red in French was rouge. Vasilisa Myshkina
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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          "Rus means red in French and has nothing to do with how the Russians got
          their name."

          I thought the word for "red" in French was "rouge."

          Vasilisa Myshkina
          ________________________________________________________________
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        • Amanda Lewanski
          ... Okay, I dragged my historian husband up here to ask this, since I ve know I ve heard him discuss this. FYI: the term Russian doesn t really come to mean
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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            Shadow wrote:

            > I may be coming in to the middle of this, but I always did wonder what "Red"
            > signified for Russians (doesn't the name "Rus" mean Red?)
            > And did "Red" always have meaning for them before the communist period?

            Okay, I dragged my historian husband up here to ask this, since I've know I've
            heard him discuss this. FYI: the term "Russian" doesn't really come to mean what
            we think of as Russian until Ivan the Terrible.

            Medievally---there were Red, Black, and White Ruthenians. Red Ruthenians lived
            in the steppes in what is now Ukraine. White Ruthenians lived in what is Belorus
            (belo means "white"). He's not sure where the Black Ruthenians lived, but thinks
            maybe the Priypet Marshes. The distinction had to do with the color of the soil.

            In this century---A red banner is a traditional color of a banner of revolution;
            the communists were revolutionaries, so they adopted a traditional symbol. (ex:
            the revolutionaries of France used a red banner, too.) The white russians were
            the royalists, who wanted to re-establish the tsar; they called themselves thus
            to distinguish themselves from the communists, who had begun calling themselves
            "reds."

            This has been a thumbnail sketch. Hope it helps.

            --Alisandre
          • petzserg
            ... From: Amanda Lewanski To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning ...
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor@...>
              To: <sig@egroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 6:56 PM
              Subject: Re: [sig] Re: dyeing was mourning


              > Shadow wrote:
              >
              > > I may be coming in to the middle of this, but I always did wonder what
              "Red"
              > > signified for Russians (doesn't the name "Rus" mean Red?)
              > > And did "Red" always have meaning for them before the communist period?
              I don't know how true, but I've heard the words "red" and "beautiful" were
              close. Also used to describe the corner where the icons were kept. The
              argument was made that the communist's co-opted the color to forward their
              revolutionary cause among the peasantry- Any one else? Sergius
            • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
              ... It s true, -- krasa , krasota means beauty and krasnyi means red. Often in fairy tales you see a young man or woman described as red -- meaning
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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                >From: "petzserg" <petzserg@...>
                >I don't know how true, but I've heard the words "red" and "beautiful" were
                >close.

                It's true, -- "krasa", "krasota" means "beauty" and "krasnyi" means "red."
                Often in fairy tales you see a young man or woman described as "red" --
                meaning pretty, healthy, beautiful, etc etc.

                >Also used to describe the corner where the icons were kept.

                And a protrait of Lenin in my times -- I am not kidding. We had a red
                corner at school.

                The
                >argument was made that the communist's co-opted the color to forward their
                >revolutionary cause among the peasantry- Any one else? Sergius
                >

                That may have been a part of it, I don't know -- but I think the "official"
                meaning was that it's the color of working men's blood spilled by the
                "bourgeoise capitalist slaveworkers" :). At least thats what they told us 60
                some years later.
                Didn't the French also use the red flag during their revolution, for pretty
                much the same reason?

                And red if French is "rouge" (pronounced "roozh"), not Rus. Unles you have
                an accent ;).

                Dmitriy Shelomianin

                ________________________________________________________________________
                Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
              • MHoll@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/1/2000 8:11:42 AM Central Daylight Time, lisa-kies@uiowa.edu writes: OK, I guess I have to pick some nits... Can t help myself... Only
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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                  In a message dated 8/1/2000 8:11:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  lisa-kies@... writes:

                  OK, I guess I have to pick some nits... Can't help myself... Only time I'm
                  allowed to...

                  > At one time, the words [<krasnyi> and <krasivyi>] were
                  > the same, which gives a nice double meaning to the name "Red Square". So
                  > red had great meaning for the Rus long before the communists came along.

                  It's not that simple. At one time, <krasnyi> meant beautiful. Other words
                  were used for "red" (<chervlenyi> <chermnyi> -- do not confuse with
                  <chernyi>, black -- <alyi> etc). Eventually, <krasnyi> came to mean "red".
                  Indeed, the color red is the color of festival, rejoicing, and just basically
                  the favorite color for everything. Somewhere, I have a statistical note about
                  the number of fragments of red cloth from medieval finds vs. all the other
                  colors -- rather overwhelming.

                  > In China, red was/is the color of good fortune and happiness. So in China,
                  > red had meaning before the communists, too.

                  > Rus means red in French and has nothing to do with how the Russians got
                  > their name. There are plenty of other theories about that.

                  Hmm... maybe in medieval French. In modern French, <roux> (m) or <rousse> (f)
                  means "red-head." <Rouge> means "red". <Roux> also means "rust-colored"
                  ("rouille" is rust).

                  Predslava.
                • LiudmilaV@aol.com
                  In a message dated 8/1/2000 4:12:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, editor@texas.net writes:
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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                    In a message dated 8/1/2000 4:12:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                    editor@... writes:

                    << Okay, I dragged my historian husband up here to ask this, since I've know
                    I've
                    heard him discuss this. FYI: the term "Russian" doesn't really come to mean
                    what
                    we think of as Russian until Ivan the Terrible.

                    Medievally---there were Red, Black, and White Ruthenians. Red Ruthenians
                    lived
                    in the steppes in what is now Ukraine. White Ruthenians lived in what is
                    Belorus
                    (belo means "white"). He's not sure where the Black Ruthenians lived, but
                    thinks
                    maybe the Priypet Marshes. The distinction had to do with the color of the
                    soil.
                    >>

                    Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
                    to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
                    Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
                    appreciate the information.

                    Liudmila
                  • Amanda Lewanski
                    ... Well, it s late and the baby sleeps in the room with the computer, but here s the short answer, from www.encyclopedia.com: Ruthenia Latinized form of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 1, 2000
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                      LiudmilaV@... wrote:

                      > Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
                      > to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
                      > Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
                      > appreciate the information.

                      Well, it's late and the baby sleeps in the room with the computer, but here's
                      the short answer, from www.encyclopedia.com:

                      Ruthenia
                      Latinized form of Russia. The term was applied to
                      Ukraine when the medieval princes of Galich took the
                      title kings of Ruthenia. Later, in Austria-Hungary,
                      Ruthenians denoted the Ukranian population of W
                      Ukraine. After 1918 Ruthenia referred only to the
                      easternmost province of Czechoslovakia, also known as
                      the Carpathian, or Transcarpathian, Ukraine; it became
                      part of the Soviet Ukraine in 1945.

                      I've given you some URLs below, but you can also search on "Ruthenia," either
                      alone or appending Red or White (didn't find much on Black on the net). "Rusyn"
                      gets some interesting results, too---it's an ethnic subgroup, not a misspelling.

                      The OED said the term "Ruthenia" is from medieval Latin for Russia. However, a
                      history of Eastern Europe will do you more good than a history of Russia, since
                      these peoples were not claimed as one of the "Russias" until Ivan. Again,
                      "Russian" in the modern sense of the word is just that. The Rus are not the same
                      thing, nor are the Ruthenians.

                      The book we yanked to flip through was Norman Davies' "God's Playground: A
                      History of Poland", vol. 1. We picked this one because it's a well-known
                      scholarly work, easily accessible, and discusses a lot of Eastern European
                      history in the discussion of the early periods. And he has useful references.
                      Anyway, besides many references in passing (since Ruthenia is not the focus of
                      this work), several maps show the sections of Ruthenia, including on on p. 73
                      showing Mazovia bordering Black Ruthenia and Malopolska bordering Red. ["Poland"
                      as such wasn't an entity yet, then, either, so much as a confederation of its
                      smaller components.] Map 7, p. 97, shows Poland under Casimir the Great
                      (1330-70), where Ruthenia (claimed by Casimir) is sandwiched between Lithuania
                      and Hungary. I can scan these and email them if you want.

                      In fact, lots of the sites that discussed Ruthenia were Hungarian interest
                      sites. (or Slovakian).

                      Here's a few of the more interesting URLs I found in a quick search. Use the
                      "find in page" to get to mention of Ruthenia. Search on "Ruthenia" or "Ruthene."

                      http://www.fotw.net/flags/ua-gal.html
                      http://members.aol.com/genfir1/ruthia.htm
                      http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/crs/rnames.htm
                      http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/coll/ukra.html

                      Linguistically, Ruthenian was also a dialect. Davies mentions on p. 115 that
                      "Its [Lithuania's] official language was "ruski" or Ruthenian -- in a form which
                      is now known as 'Old Byelorussian.'

                      Let me know if you need any more. This was just a quick search. It was and is
                      not an uncommon term, but you'd have been more likely to know it if you were
                      living there in the 1200s than the 1900s.

                      --Alisandre
                    • Jenne Heise
                      ... Try the Annals of Jan Dlugoz, which is an english translation of a fifteenth century Polish history. It took me forever to work out who and where the
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 2, 2000
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                        > Interesting. Would you please ask your historian husband for some reference
                        > to this Red, White, and Black Ruthenians that I could look up? Growing up in
                        > Ukraine and studying history I never heard of "Ruthenians." I would
                        > appreciate the information.

                        Try the Annals of Jan Dlugoz, which is an english translation of a
                        fifteenth century Polish history. It took me forever to work out who and
                        where the Ruthenians were, because they show up all over the place but
                        nobody seems to explain them. However, when you speak to older people they
                        talk about White, Black and Red Russians (NOT the drinks, but
                        nationalities or ethnicities apparently?) and those seem to corespond to
                        the Ruthenians. Perhaps 'Ruthenians' is the latin or english term and
                        there is another term in Ukranian, that the older people were translating
                        as 'Russian'?

                        Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                        disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.

                        "They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the
                        nuts work loose.
                        They do not preach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when
                        they damn-well choose. " -Kipling, "The Sons of Martha"
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