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Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya

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  • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
    ... Greetings, Tom! Well, I wish I could give you a straight answer.. in my opinion, it is a complete hoax. Every single accredited historian who deals with
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 17, 2000
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      >From: tom@...
      >Can anyone help with info about the history of the Book of Veles.
      >If a hoax then by whom and when?
      >Thanks for any answers to these questions.
      >tom

      Greetings, Tom!
      Well, I wish I could give you a straight answer.. in my opinion, it is a
      complete hoax.
      Every single accredited historian who deals with that period of Russian
      history has the same opinion (at least, no one has called it a real thing
      yet).
      There are plenty of amateurs (most of them aspiring Russian neo-pagans) who
      will claim otherwise and cite a general concpiracy by the "official"
      historians.

      Here's a synopsis of the answer to my query concerning this subject by a
      Russian (as in, living in Russia) history grad student (umm.. on second
      thought, she may be majoring in linguistics..I forget.)

      There were 3 studies made to determine whether it was a hoax or not.

      1. L. P. Zhukovskaia analyzed the photograph of one of the "boards"
      published by A.A. Kurenkov from materials sent to him by Mirolubov (the
      theoretical author of the thing). She determined two things:
      That the supposed photograph wasn't a photograph of the "board" but of a
      copy drawn from it (this doesn't conclusively prove that the board did not
      exist -- just that the picture wasn't of the board itself).
      That linguistical and palaeographical (what's paleograhpical? me not know)
      analysis of the text of that board shows that the board is a falsification.

      2. In 1977 B.A. Rybakov, L.P. Zhukovskaia and V. I. Buganov analyzed the
      complete text of "The Book of Veles" based on the book "Vlesova kniga --
      yazycheskaia letopis doolegovoi Rusi" by Sergei Lesnoy (aside -- whose
      "Otkuda ty Rus' " I would gladly spit on, and would have if it wasn't a
      library copy, the man is so inflammatory -- DS) and, based on their
      linguistical, paleographical, and historical analysis of the book declared,
      again, that the book is a falsification.

      3. In the late 80s O.V. Tvorogov again made a very thorough analysis of all
      the aforementioned qualities of the book, as well as the history of its
      "discovery", and, again, declared it to be a hoax.

      (end of summary).

      The neo-pagans are still shouting bloody murder, and nothing can be proved
      conclusively because not one of those fabled boards was ever presented to
      the public.

      I would highly reccomend against using 'The Book of Veles" in your book --
      all we need is more confusion on the topic. Any reference to the thing that
      does not state outright that "The Book.." is a hoax lends it more
      credibility, even if it is a work of fiction.
      As for the boards -- they are beech. The letters are carved into them,
      painted over, and then covered with some sort of laquer.
      At least, that's how they are made according to the people who claim the
      darn things exist.
      The two possible authors are:
      1.A.I. Sulkadzev, who produced several conclusively proven hoaxes in the
      similar vein in early 19th century;
      2. Uri Mirolubov, who "transcribed" and "edited" the things for 15 (!) years
      from 1924 to 1939.

      Sorry for the long-winded reply, was trying to be conclusive.. if you need
      more info, don't hesitate to ask.

      -Dmitriy Shelomianin
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    • MHoll@aol.com
      In a message dated 7/17/2000 10:22:37 PM Central Daylight Time, ... that ... I would like to add a very strong agreement with this. As a Slavic Studies
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 17, 2000
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        In a message dated 7/17/2000 10:22:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
        dvryaboy@... writes:

        > I would highly reccomend against using 'The Book of Veles" in your book --
        > all we need is more confusion on the topic. Any reference to the thing
        that
        > does not state outright that "The Book.." is a hoax lends it more
        > credibility, even if it is a work of fiction.

        I would like to add a very strong agreement with this. As a Slavic Studies
        specialist, a folklorist, a language teacher, I hate to see hoaxes spread as
        truth.

        The "Book of Veles" is not a work of fiction. A respectable work of fiction
        is proud of being a story told for the fun of it. Any work of fiction that
        pretends to be truth is a hoax. A hoax is not fiction. Fiction is
        entertainment. A hoax is a lie, a trick, something to be swept out with the
        dirt.

        I just hate hoaxes. Unless they're for fun. But that's another story, isn't
        it?

        So, my advice is the same: do not use it in your novel. I wouldn't. There's
        enough fun to be had out there with "real" fiction, such as folklore,
        beliefs, etc. You're much better off using 19th century folklore in a novel
        about medieval Russia than the Book of Veles.

        Predslava,
        stepping down off her soap box yet once more. One of these days it won't hold
        me up and I'll fall on my face.
      • Jenn Ridley
        On Monday, Dmitriy wrote: ... Paleographical refers to how it was written down. Paleography is the study of the history of writing, as opposed to linguistics,
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 17, 2000
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          On Monday, Dmitriy wrote:

          ...<snip>....
          >There were 3 studies made to determine whether it was a hoax or not.
          >
          ....<snip>.....
          >That linguistical and palaeographical (what's paleograhpical? me not know)
          >analysis of the text of that board shows that the board is a falsification.

          Paleographical refers to how it was written down. Paleography is the
          study of the history of writing, as opposed to linguistics, which is
          the study of words and language.

          stasia

          (argh..took me three tries to get Dmitriy's name right...in our house,
          Dmitriy is spelled Dimitri. Why is it always harder to use
          "alternative" spellings of names we know than to get unfamiliar names
          correct?)
          ---
          Jenn Ridley
          jenn.ridley@...
        • Jenne Heise
          Wow! It sounds like great fodder for an Elizabeth Peters/Barbara Michaels archaelogical mystery novel. She hasn t gotten her teeth into any good archaelogical
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 18, 2000
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            Wow! It sounds like great fodder for an Elizabeth Peters/Barbara Michaels
            archaelogical mystery novel. She hasn't gotten her teeth into any good
            archaelogical hoaxes in years. (_The Dancing Floor_ was kind of
            halfhearted, for the obvious reason that 'wicca' is no longer considered a
            hoax but a created religion, so it's really hard to rake it over the coals
            as thoroughly as she did the hoaxes mentioned in _Summer of the Dragon_.)

            > Here's a synopsis of the answer to my query concerning this subject by a
            > Russian (as in, living in Russia) history grad student (umm.. on second
            > thought, she may be majoring in linguistics..I forget.)

            Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
            disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
            "Scratch a lover and find a foe." -- Dorothy Parker
          • Sarayya@aol.com
            What is the Zorya ? What does the word mean? How do you pronounce it? I find it interesting because it is somewhat close to my name. Soraya Evodia of Odessa
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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              What is the "Zorya"? What does the word mean?

              How do you pronounce it?

              I find it interesting because it is somewhat close to my name.

              Soraya Evodia of Odessa
            • serguei plonski
              Hello, Zorya means sunrise in Russian. It is pronounced zaria with a stress on a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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                Hello,

                Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress on
                a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
                there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
                Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
                "evening sunrise".

                They allegedly mated with sons of Orei and produced the Slavic nation as we
                know it.

                BB

                Sergei


                >From: Sarayya@...
                >Reply-To: sig@egroups.com
                >To: sig@egroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya
                >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 03:12:54 EDT
                >
                >What is the "Zorya"? What does the word mean?
                >
                >How do you pronounce it?
                >
                >I find it interesting because it is somewhat close to my name.
                >
                >Soraya Evodia of Odessa
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                ________________________________________________________________________
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              • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
                ... Which means you need to triple check it... -D ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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                  >From: "serguei plonski" <p_serguei@...>

                  >Hello,
                  >In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)


                  Which means you need to triple check it...

                  -D
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                • LiudmilaV@aol.com
                  In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, p_serguei@hotmail.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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                    In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                    p_serguei@... writes:

                    << Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress
                    on
                    a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
                    there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
                    Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
                    "evening sunrise".
                    >>

                    "Zorya" is not a sunrise but a look of the sky and the time of day when the
                    sun goes up or down. The stress, at least in modern Russian, is at the last
                    syllable. Sorry. (Soraya -- I will pronounce it for you if you remind me,
                    it is indeed close to your name).

                    Liudmila
                  • serguei plonski
                    Hello, Liudmila! You are absolutely right. I apologize for the misleading information. It s just the usual ignorance of a native speaker who spent too much
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 2, 2000
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                      Hello, Liudmila!

                      You are absolutely right. I apologize for the misleading information. It's
                      just the usual ignorance of a native speaker who spent too much time away
                      from home.

                      I'm trying to remember if the people in my community ever used "zaria" to
                      indicate the look on the sky at sunsets... Maybe they did and I just don't
                      remember.

                      Thanks for corrections!

                      Sergei


                      >From: LiudmilaV@...
                      >Reply-To: sig@egroups.com
                      >To: sig@egroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [sig] Book of Veles and the Zorya
                      >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:40:19 EDT
                      >
                      >In a message dated 8/2/2000 9:48:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      >p_serguei@... writes:
                      >
                      ><< Zorya means "sunrise" in Russian. It is pronounced "zaria" with a stress
                      >on
                      > a first syllable. In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
                      > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia
                      >and
                      > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
                      > "evening sunrise".
                      > >>
                      >
                      >"Zorya" is not a sunrise but a look of the sky and the time of day when the
                      >sun goes up or down. The stress, at least in modern Russian, is at the
                      >last
                      >syllable. Sorry. (Soraya -- I will pronounce it for you if you remind me,
                      >it is indeed close to your name).
                      >
                      >Liudmila
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

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                    • MHoll@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time, ... we ... And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research --
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
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                        In a message dated 8/2/2000 11:48:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
                        p_serguei@... writes:

                        > In Russian mythology (according to the Book of Veles)
                        > there are three potent female deities - Zorya Utrennia, Zorya Dnevnaia and
                        > Zorya Vechernia. Their names mean - "Morning sunrise", "Noon sunrise" and
                        > "evening sunrise".
                        >
                        > They allegedly mated with sons of Orei and produced the Slavic nation as
                        we
                        > know it.

                        And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical research
                        -- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
                        and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact. There is
                        no historical data about Russian paganism, or Slavic, beyond vague
                        information about a variety of minor magical creatures. The consensus at this
                        time is that Slavic paganism was a shamanistic/agrarian system with no
                        structured Pantheon similar to Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or any other system.

                        The indirect information about Slavic beliefs and rituals hints at some
                        rituals that involved dancing and music, and more specific information coming
                        from questions one parish priest asked of his superior, such as "should the
                        bride be allowed to slice the cheese" -- a direct reference to something we
                        encounter in much later sources about wedding rituals. However, "slicing the
                        cheese" and other tidbits don't paint a picture of Russian paganism, just a
                        few spots of color on a blank canvas.

                        Predslava.
                      • serguei plonski
                        Hello, Predslava!
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 3, 2000
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                          Hello, Predslava!


                          <..And once again, I need to caution all those who are doing historical
                          research
                          >-- these books are not sources of historical information. They are made up,
                          >and I am annoyed that they continue to be passed as historical fact..>

                          I just want to make a couple of points here:

                          first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
                          that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
                          "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
                          sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
                          or Bhagavat Gita?

                          And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
                          But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
                          historians to point us out the errors and abnormaliies that would render it
                          a fake?

                          But this hasn't been done. Some of the critics don't even bother to read the
                          source itself, being convinced that it's a fake from the start. I'm not
                          saying it's authentic, but until the serious research is done on that book
                          it should remain inconclusive.

                          BB

                          Sergei
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                        • Vaclav von Pressburg
                          On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote: . . . ... The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a religious book. ...
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 4, 2000
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                            On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:43:07AM -0400, serguei plonski wrote:
                            . . .
                            > first of all, neither the book itself nor any of its interpreters suggest
                            > that the Book of Veles is a history textbook. It cannot be even labelled
                            > "chronicles". It is a collection of sacred writings of one of the religious
                            > sects of ancient Slavs. Would you consider studying history from the Bible
                            > or Bhagavat Gita?

                            The claim is that the Book of Veles is a literary fake, not a
                            religious book.

                            > And secondly, it is very easy to dismiss the book just by calling it a fake.
                            > But shouldn't it be proven to be a fake then? Why don't we get one of those
                            > historians to point us out the errors and abnormalities that would render it
                            > a fake?

                            The Book of Veles is one of a class of romantic fakes, like the
                            Osian cycle of Scotland. I seem to recall a similar work from 19th
                            century Czech literature. The case against this class of work rests
                            on the following grounds

                            1) Lack of _any_ indication of such information in the period
                            between the supposed composition of the work and its
                            publication. Thus for the Book of Veles there is a complete
                            absence of evidence for the survival of Slavic paganism into
                            medieval and modern times.
                            2) Lack of an original manuscript. This is a very important
                            consideration. If you found an old, hidden manuscript that
                            had such important information would you lose track of it? Even
                            if it were disintegrating, you would keep the pieces.
                            3) Simply reading the handwriting of an old manuscript is
                            difficult. The average person who is used to reading printed
                            books would need the assistance of a palaeographic specialist to
                            decipher most old manuscripts.
                            4) The language is anachronistic. This doesn't just involve
                            grammatical forms and word usage, but also style which can
                            change significantly in the course of only a century. As an
                            example, pick up a book published in 1910 or 1920 and compare
                            the style to that in a current English book.

                            --
                            Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                            vaclav@...
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