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Re: [sig] Latvian tautes terps

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  • Jenne Heise
    ... I suspect that the skirt they are describing would be pleated but the pleats not sewn in... which would be exactly equivalent to the legendary Celtic male
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 20, 2000
      > "Before the nineteenth century, there is evidence of a skirt which
      > was not sewn but
      > which was simply a piece of fabric wrapped around the body and
      > secured with a belt."
      >
      > To me that doesn't mean that pleating was unknown before the 1800s --
      > just that there was another method earlier for making skirts. (Very
      > awkward and insecure method, too -- you couldn't take an ordinary
      > walking step in such a skirt, much less chase toddlers.) Is there
      > other evidence somewhere that definatively establishes that pleats
      > are OOP, Parsla?

      I suspect that the skirt they are describing would be pleated but the
      pleats not sewn in... which would be exactly equivalent to the legendary
      Celtic male kilt and its female equivalent whose name I don't recall. If
      the fabric was pleated or gathered under the belt, it would work fine. In
      fact, even if it was not pleated but the fabric was wide enough it might
      work: I've chased toddlers while wearing nothin' but a sheet wrapped
      double and secured with a tuck-under, bathtowel style: a belt would be
      much more secure. (Yes, and I _am_ a woman of size for those who haven't
      met me.)

      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
      disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
      "My hands are small I know, but they're not yours, they are my own"
    • Jenn/Yana
      ... When something is introduced to a group of people or invented by someone in their group, then those people have the choice to accept, reject, or modify it.
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 20, 2000
        >True -- but the pleated skirt in other cultures is most certainly
        >period. Is Latvia so isolated that the simple technique of
        >pleating/gathering a skirt onto a waistband took 400+ years to get
        >there? Or so hidebound traditional that earlier examples of pleating
        >was ignored because "that's not the way Grandma did it?"

        When something is introduced to a group of people or invented by someone in
        their group, then those people have the choice to accept, reject, or modify
        it. This decision will be based on their environment, the needs of the
        time, and their culture. Just because something works "better" does not
        mean it will be adopted. If it were true that the "best" ideas always win
        out over the rest, then the world would likely be a much more homogeneous
        place than it is. The pleated skirt may have been introduced in previous
        eras, but for whatever reason, it was apparently not accepted until the
        19th century.

        >The website referred to (http://www.latinst.lv/li_eng_facts.htm) is
        >very oddly phrased:
        >
        >"Before the nineteenth century, there is evidence of a skirt which
        >was not sewn but
        > which was simply a piece of fabric wrapped around the body and
        >secured with a belt."
        >
        >To me that doesn't mean that pleating was unknown before the 1800s --
        >just that there was another method earlier for making skirts. (Very
        >awkward and insecure method, too -- you couldn't take an ordinary
        >walking step in such a skirt, much less chase toddlers.)

        There are many traditional and modern garments (as well as SCA period and
        earlier) that are only a wrapped piece of fabric that manages to stay
        securely in place, even with heavy lifting, bending, twisting, running,
        etc. I have seen videos of Indian women working in a sawmill and a
        metalworks factory wearing saris. The garments did not impede them in any
        way that I observed. They were secure enough so as not to fall into their
        work or injure the wearer. Saris have been worn for centuries. If a sari
        did not allow a woman to run after her children, would they likely have
        remained a widely-worn garment? Saris have changed over the centuries (the
        way they are wrapped, their length, their total yardage, colors, patterns,
        accessories, etc), but it is still a garment that is unsecured by anything
        more than the manner in which it is wrapped and (usually) a drawstring/belt
        at the waist (sometimes attached to a skirt) which the garment is tucked
        into. I can think of other examples such as Indian male garments, many
        Islander cultures, Greek and Roman togas, kilts, the towel wraped around my
        body after my shower, etc.

        A belt will secure a wrapped garment too, but I will not add the value
        judgement if it was more or less secure because I haven't compared to two
        methods (you'll also have to ask "more secure for what?").

        > Is there
        >other evidence somewhere that definatively establishes that pleats
        >are OOP, Parsla?
        >
        >Alanna

        Well, if you attempt this then you are trying to prove a negative, which
        can't be done. You can try to show that a technique existed that would
        make pleats unlikely to have been adopted or invented. You can discover
        the earliest known use of pleats in Latvia. But you can't show that pleats
        are OOP. I run into this all the time in my research. I can't say that
        the Russian sarafan is OOP, but I can say that there is no pictoral,
        textual, or physical evidence for it before the 18th century and I can show
        that similar garments existed that would have served the same purpose as a
        sarafan.

        --Yana
      • Parsla Liepa
        ... Unfortunately, none of my photos from the ethnographic museum in Riga turned out, so I m going off memory here. Memory from about 8 months ago. Ack. I
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 21, 2000
          > > "Before the nineteenth century, there is evidence of a skirt which
          > > was not sewn but
          > > which was simply a piece of fabric wrapped around the body and
          > > secured with a belt."
          > >
          > > To me that doesn't mean that pleating was unknown before the 1800s --
          > > just that there was another method earlier for making skirts. (Very
          > > awkward and insecure method, too -- you couldn't take an ordinary
          > > walking step in such a skirt, much less chase toddlers.) Is there
          > > other evidence somewhere that definatively establishes that pleats
          > > are OOP, Parsla?
          >
          > I suspect that the skirt they are describing would be pleated but the
          > pleats not sewn in... which would be exactly equivalent to the legendary
          > Celtic male kilt and its female equivalent whose name I don't recall. If
          > the fabric was pleated or gathered under the belt, it would work fine. In
          > fact, even if it was not pleated but the fabric was wide enough it might
          > work: I've chased toddlers while wearing nothin' but a sheet wrapped
          > double and secured with a tuck-under, bathtowel style: a belt would be
          > much more secure. (Yes, and I _am_ a woman of size for those who haven't
          > met me.)

          Unfortunately, none of my photos from the ethnographic museum in Riga
          turned out, so I'm going off memory here. Memory from about 8 months
          ago. Ack.

          I seem to remember that the outfits that were SCA-period had base garments
          that were like chitons, a tube of fabric fastened at the shoulders, and
          cinched at the waist.

          It seemed to me, in my side trips to Estonia and Lithuania, that the basic
          garment remained the same, it was the 'embelishments' that varied from
          culture to culture. Adding an apron, or a shawl, or different types of
          jewelry, etc.

          Having worn a chiton to a drunken Halloween party at a dance club, I can
          tell you that yes, you can move in something like that.

          As for proving that the pleats are OOP, cant hat even be done? I can say
          that little or even no evidence exists, but what's to say that somebody
          somewhere didn't?

          Parsla
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