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Re: [sig] Re: The Book of Veles

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  • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
    ... See, that s the problem, most certified historians think it was written by Sergey Lesnoy in the 20th. Dmitriy
    Message 1 of 13 , May 2 7:13 AM
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      >From: "Castalia" <castalia@...>
      >I understand that it was compiled somwhere around the 12th century (correct
      >me, please) as a pice of nationalists psudo-history


      See, that's the problem, most certified historians think it was written by
      Sergey Lesnoy in the 20th.

      Dmitriy
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    • MHoll@aol.com
      In a message dated 5/2/2000 6:06:56 AM Central Daylight Time, ... This is rather a contradiction in terms. 12th century and nationalism do not go together.
      Message 2 of 13 , May 2 9:01 PM
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        In a message dated 5/2/2000 6:06:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
        castalia@... writes:

        > I understand that it was compiled somwhere around the 12th century (correct
        > me, please) as a pice of nationalists psudo-history.

        This is rather a contradiction in terms. 12th century and nationalism do not
        go together. Nationalism is a 19th century (Romantic) concept. As for
        pseudo-history, such constructs are also mostly 19th century. They might be
        compilations of stories and legends and beliefs that authors of such
        compilations felt went together well, but have no real business of being put
        together.


        > What is may reflect,
        > is the mind-set of some of the thinkers of that time, or at least some of
        > the wishful thinking at that time.

        Look at the _Lay (Song) of Igor's Campaign_ for philosophical concepts and
        political ideas. Look also at vitae (saints' lives), especially those of
        princely saints (Aleksandr Nevskii, Vladimir, Boris and Gleb) for images of
        the ideal ruler, person, etc.

        Look also at chronicles, especially the longer (and often more boring)
        passages where the chronicler calls on Biblical and Classical images to
        illustrate his point.

        > So, from this bok we might not gather any early period history, but we
        > might gather some mid- and pate-period thoughts about history.

        No, not even. I don't think there is any usefulness here. A 12th century date
        is just impossible.

        Predslava,
        back on her soap box.
      • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
        Hi -- just wanted to complimet you on the posts to the sig list. Do you know of any scholarly paper that debunks Veles ? I wasn t able to find anything
        Message 3 of 13 , May 2 9:22 PM
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          Hi --
          just wanted to complimet you on the posts to the sig list.
          Do you know of any scholarly paper that debunks "Veles"? I wasn't able to
          find anything conclusive, to my dismay -- though I did not spend more than
          my lunch break looking for it, so it's probably out there. It seems they
          just keep saying "Yes, it is" "No, it's not" "Yes, it is"... One would
          think that at least linguistically it can be proven as a falsification,
          Lesnoy isn't that good.


          Dmitriy
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        • Castalia
          See, that s the problem, most certified historians think it was written by Sergey Lesnoy in the 20th. Dmitriy Cool. Soviet nuclear rocket scientists think
          Message 4 of 13 , May 3 4:03 AM
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            See, that's the problem, most certified historians think it was written by
            Sergey Lesnoy in the 20th.

            Dmitriy


            Cool. Soviet nuclear rocket scientists think it's 12th century. Mea
            culpa.

            Ksenia
          • Jenne Heise
            ... Actually, that may be the problem, Predslava. ;) The few scraps of information we do see about pre-Christian Rus tend to portray a far less regimented and
            Message 5 of 13 , May 3 5:47 AM
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              > I know ancient paganism is fascinating, too, but why get yourself a headache
              > when there is so much documentable, and relatively easy information to
              > obtain, about Christianity? It's OK to have a Christian persona. YOU don't
              > have to be, just your persona.
              >

              Actually, that may be the problem, Predslava. ;) The few scraps of
              information we do see about pre-Christian Rus tend to portray a far less
              regimented and constrained society than the widely available information
              about period Orthodox Christianity in Rus. The trouble with this idea is
              that most of the depictions of pre-Christian society _anywhere_ by period
              authors actually tend to overemphasize these elements.

              (Many people try to construct pre-Christian personas from the British
              Isles, thinking that pre-Christian life was less rigidly structured than
              subsequent Christian society. The truth is that as we learn more about
              pre-Christian societies we find that societies that were rigid under
              Christianity were pretty rigid under paganism too, and in fact some
              societies -- such as the Greek and Roman-- were MORE rigid under
              paganism.)

              My persona is Roman Catholic in Poland, but they were notorious for mixing
              rigid adherence to some rules with non-conformism in others, and I like
              that. After reading the Domostroi, I gotta admit I wouldn't feel very
              comfortable taking on an Orthodox persona, and it has nothing to do with
              religion per se!

              Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
              disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
              "Oh it's all too much, too grim, too lovely, too -- how should
              I put this? It's general chaos." -- Edward Gorey
            • MHoll@aol.com
              In a message dated 5/3/2000 6:13:21 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Now we hit another problem, but one that concerns us only marginally. There is a phenomenon
              Message 6 of 13 , May 3 1:28 PM
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                In a message dated 5/3/2000 6:13:21 AM Central Daylight Time,
                castalia@... writes:

                > Soviet nuclear rocket scientists think it's 12th century.

                Now we hit another problem, but one that concerns us only marginally. There
                is a phenomenon the writer Solzhenitsyn called "obrazovanshchina" -- from
                "obrazovanie" -- education, with a pejorative suffix. What he meant by that,
                is people who have "higher" education, especially technical, but no culture
                whatsoever, not even the stuff you pick up at home and at school as you go.
                The reason, according to him, is that the Soviet regime destroyed culture and
                did not replace it with anything of value.

                However, people who attended advanced courses (nuclear scientists et al.) do
                not consider themselves "lacking" and will readily dissertate on subjects
                they have no real knowledge of. And they do so with such self-assurance that
                anyone will be swayed by their assertions.

                OK, so you got me on yet another soapbox. Well, that comes from growing up a
                political emigre.

                Predslava,
                off her soapbox, for now...
              • MHoll@aol.com
                In a message dated 5/3/2000 7:42:52 AM Central Daylight Time, ... That s the common view. However, Christianity actually moderated native laws and customs,
                Message 7 of 13 , May 3 1:41 PM
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                  In a message dated 5/3/2000 7:42:52 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  jenne@... writes:

                  > Actually, that may be the problem, Predslava. ;) The few scraps of
                  > information we do see about pre-Christian Rus tend to portray a far less
                  > regimented and constrained society than the widely available information
                  > about period Orthodox Christianity in Rus.

                  That's the common view. However, Christianity actually moderated native laws
                  and customs, offered women a number of protections, but did so in a fairly
                  moderate and sensible way. Of course, that is a subject for a monograph...

                  > The trouble with this idea is
                  > that most of the depictions of pre-Christian society _anywhere_ by period
                  > authors actually tend to overemphasize these elements.

                  Yes, along with licentiousness, promiscuity, anarchy... Without specific
                  study of the subject, one would get a picture of "free love" (I mean here
                  co-habitation without proper sanction from the society or religious
                  authorities), orgies, etc... In other words, elements that would attract
                  modern minds.

                  However, more careful studies show a society that already was very structured
                  and strict and with rigid traditions and rules. One example is the covering
                  of married women's hair: its importance is such that most scholars agree it
                  had to be a continuation of a pre-Christian tradition. Especially in view of
                  the perception that there was dangerous magic in women's hair -- not a
                  Christian concept.

                  > My persona is Roman Catholic in Poland, but they were notorious for mixing
                  > rigid adherence to some rules with non-conformism in others, and I like
                  > that. After reading the Domostroi, I gotta admit I wouldn't feel very
                  > comfortable taking on an Orthodox persona, and it has nothing to do with
                  > religion per se!

                  The Domostroi is late-late period, and one of the reasons why I don't like
                  Muscovy. It represents the mind-set of that time. However, its very
                  insistance on certain proprieties would indicate that these things were NOT
                  commonly adhered to. It is the "non-question" of women's studies: if someone
                  says something should not be done, it means someone (probably A LOT of
                  someones) were doing it.

                  Early Christianity in Russia, for instance, accepted common-law marriage,
                  especially if there was no priest to officiate, as long as the marriage was
                  made official (in church) at the first opportunity. The penalties for
                  cohabitation without proper marriage, in such conditions, were so mild that
                  they were negligible.

                  An excellent source on this is Eve Levin's book _Sex and Society in the World
                  of the Orthodox Slavs_.

                  You'll be surprised how liberal pre-Mongol Orthodoxy was in Russia.

                  Predslava.
                • Dmitriy V. Ryaboy
                  ... Whoops, I messed up again. Did some more digging, an found that it is commonly held that Lesnoy was a follower, the original author was one Mirolubov, who
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 3 2:02 PM
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                    >From: "Dmitriy V. Ryaboy" <dvryaboy@...>
                    >See, that's the problem, most certified historians think it was written by
                    >Sergey Lesnoy in the 20th.
                    >
                    >Dmitriy


                    Whoops, I messed up again. Did some more digging, an found that it is
                    commonly held that Lesnoy was a follower, the original author was one
                    Mirolubov, who "copied" the book in the 1924-1939. An alternate theory
                    attributes "The Book of Veles" to one Sulkadzev, who lived in the 19th
                    century.

                    in pursuit of debunking,
                    Dmitriy Shelomianin
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                  • Jenne Heise
                    ... Yup. ... I d agree with that, except... well, the covering hair part is in fact very Judeo-Christian. It sounds peculiar. What strikes me as peculiar
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 3 2:34 PM
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                      > Yes, along with licentiousness, promiscuity, anarchy... Without specific
                      > study of the subject, one would get a picture of "free love" (I mean here
                      > co-habitation without proper sanction from the society or religious
                      > authorities), orgies, etc... In other words, elements that would attract
                      > modern minds.

                      Yup.

                      > However, more careful studies show a society that already was very structured
                      > and strict and with rigid traditions and rules. One example is the covering
                      > of married women's hair: its importance is such that most scholars agree it
                      > had to be a continuation of a pre-Christian tradition. Especially in view of
                      > the perception that there was dangerous magic in women's hair -- not a
                      > Christian concept.

                      I'd agree with that, except... well, the covering hair part is in fact
                      very Judeo-Christian. It sounds peculiar. What strikes me as peculiar
                      about Slavic societies is not the covering of women's hair, but the
                      strongly held division between maidens' hair and matrons'.

                      > The Domostroi is late-late period, and one of the reasons why I don't like
                      > Muscovy. It represents the mind-set of that time. However, its very
                      > insistance on certain proprieties would indicate that these things were NOT
                      > commonly adhered to. It is the "non-question" of women's studies: if someone
                      > says something should not be done, it means someone (probably A LOT of
                      > someones) were doing it.

                      Well, yes. However, the lot of a woman (or even a male dependent) as
                      described in the Domostroi does sound pretty bleak-- even the things a
                      woman can do wrong don't sound like much fun. ;)

                      > Early Christianity in Russia, for instance, accepted common-law marriage,
                      > especially if there was no priest to officiate, as long as the marriage was
                      > made official (in church) at the first opportunity. The penalties for
                      > cohabitation without proper marriage, in such conditions, were so mild that
                      > they were negligible.
                      > An excellent source on this is Eve Levin's book _Sex and Society in the World
                      > of the Orthodox Slavs_.

                      Is there anything similar on domestic life (rather than sex)?

                      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                      disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
                      "Oh it's all too much, too grim, too lovely, too -- how should
                      I put this? It's general chaos." -- Edward Gorey
                    • MHoll@aol.com
                      In a message dated 5/3/2000 4:31:16 PM Central Daylight Time, ... It s a matter of what many scholars call a sexy title -- something that will get your book
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 4 11:26 AM
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                        In a message dated 5/3/2000 4:31:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
                        jenne@... writes:

                        > > An excellent source on this is Eve Levin's book _Sex and Society in the
                        > World
                        > > of the Orthodox Slavs_.
                        >
                        > Is there anything similar on domestic life (rather than sex)?
                        >

                        It's a matter of what many scholars call a "sexy title" -- something that
                        will get your book bought... It's really not so much about sex as about
                        family relationships and structure, and the influence (and place) of the
                        church in the family life.

                        C.J. Pouncy's introduction to her translation of the Domostroi is also and
                        excellent article.

                        Predslava.
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