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Re:Re: Fealty

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  • hadji
    Dobar dan Barcsi Janos i sve drugi, Greetings all of you,
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 31, 2000
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      Dobar dan Barcsi Janos i sve drugi,

      Greetings all of you,

      <<It is my theory that the concept of a country/state (people, perhaps
      unrelated) as distinct from a nation (people, probably similar
      ethnically)is dependant on the threat they face.... continue with a very
      interesting post>>

      <<Does this make sense?>>

      That is exactly my opinion. By the way sometimes paralels with a modern
      history helps us to understand our distant past. The peoples have not
      changed their minds too much for the last few thousands years, only
      technologies have made considerable progress.

      Bene Vale

      Alexander I.C. Probus
    • hadji
      Ahoj Walraven,
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 31, 2000
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        Ahoj Walraven,

        <<Sorry, but it is quite easy to refute this claim. Hungary ruled the
        lands of the Slovaks, Croats, as well as many Cumanians, Romanians, and
        others. The Slovenes were alternately ruled by Franks, Germans, and
        Venetians and had no state of their own.>>

        Hungary, resp. Germany ruled some territories inhabited by other folks,
        but the state creating folk (Hungarians, Germans) were in supreme
        positions over other one. All the administration, ruling aristocracy and
        high positions were saved for the supreme nation. Could you mentioned
        some Slovakian aristocrat or high official? As for Croats in Hungary
        they were in a little bit different position. Croatian Duxness were
        established before Hungarians came to Pannonia, so later Hungarian state
        expanding included these Duxness and they receive the supreme authority
        of Hungarian king. But it was still overlordship not neighbourship or
        peacful co-existing.

        <<Ragusa was a mix of various cultures.>>

        ... under the supreme power of Venetian republic, by the way like as
        other points allover Mediterranian sea.

        <<And of course the borders of Byzantium were hardly drawn along
        ethnic lines.>>

        The Eastern Empire was probably the only multiethnical state there where
        one's possitionit does not depend so much on ethnicity, but mainly on
        the social status.

        Ciao

        Alexander
      • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
        ... The Hungarian aristocracy ceased to be Hungarian around the 13th/14th century. At that time, the crown went to foreigners. And long before that (during
        Message 3 of 3 , Apr 1, 2000
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          On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, hadji wrote:

          > the state creating folk (Hungarians, Germans) were in supreme
          > positions over other one. All the administration, ruling aristocracy and
          > high positions were saved for the supreme nation. Could you mentioned
          > some Slovakian aristocrat or high official?

          The Hungarian aristocracy ceased to be Hungarian around the 13th/14th
          century. At that time, the crown went to foreigners. And long before
          that (during the reign of the Arpad kings) none of the Queens of Hungary
          were Magyar -- all came from foreign lands, so there was a large foreign
          population in the royal court. The populace joked that there was no
          Hungarian blood left in the royal line by the time the Arpad line ended.

          > As for Croats in Hungary they were in a little bit different position.
          > Croatian Duxness were established before Hungarians came to Pannonia,
          > so later Hungarian state expanding included these Duxness and they
          > receive the supreme authority of Hungarian king. But it was still
          > overlordship not neighbourship or peacful co-existing.

          Quite the contrary. The Croats *invited* the Hungarian king to take the
          Croatian crown when their own royal line ended. And many of the Hungarian
          appointed men who became Ban were Croats and were given near-autonomy in
          their own region.

          > <<Ragusa was a mix of various cultures.>>
          >
          > ... under the supreme power of Venetian republic, by the way like as
          > other points allover Mediterranian sea.

          Nope. Ragusa was a rival to Venice, and was *never* ruled by them. Both
          Croatia and Ragusa fought many wars against the Venetians. Ragusa was an
          independent and autonomous nation until 1808, when Napoleon conquered it.

          > The Eastern Empire was probably the only multiethnical state there where
          > one's possitionit does not depend so much on ethnicity, but mainly on
          > the social status.

          It didn't depend solely on social status either. Remember that some
          Emperors began life as goatherds!

          --Walraven
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